You’re absolutely right. I meant to call BrainGlutton on that one yesterday evening but Life got in the way. Good catch.
Why else would Mr. Stotch love seeing smug celebrites get their comeuppance besides envy? And the cop’s wife’s line sounded hyperbolic, but not sarcastic. Does the idea that a lower middle-class white guy might resent with the fact that a bunch of rich black American men are running around the world having waaaay more fun than they are, and that if given the power, respect, and benifit of the doubt that a cop is given, he might do something to ruin their fun? Stotch’s line and the cop’s actions seemed to be admitting that much.
That should be “Does the idea that a lower middle-class white guy might resent with the fact that a bunch of rich black American men are running around the world having waaaay more fun than they are, and that if given the power, respect, and benifit of the doubt that a cop is given, he might do something to ruin their fun sound unbelievable? Stotch’s line seemed to admit otherwise.”
Are you so audacious as to doubt my veracity and slanderously insinuate I sophistrate? Can I make any comment without you questioning my motives, Larry?
All I said was, “… by presenting their premise as “true,” they were only indirectly satirizing Jackson’s apologists and directly satirizing bigoted white cops.” That’s an observation, not a sophism.
I’m over my “yeesh” quota. I’ll follow with a “feh.”
I’ve apparently been watching South Park incorrectly all of these years. I just naturally assume they’re being ironic, in the true sense of the word, the vast majority of the time unless I have evidence that it’s not the case. Like when they called Jon Edward the biggest douche bag in the Universe. That wasn’t ironic, that was literal.
Judging from the reactions to various episodes in this thread, I seem to be missing the point entirely.
And Dio I agree with your assessment of the Michael Jackson episode. It never occurred to me that they were making fun of bigoted white cops when what they were saying/doing was so completely over the top. They were making fun of people (ahem, Jackson) who honestly believe that the cops have nothing better to do than fram rich black celebrities.
As to the transgendered episode, I haven’t watched it. I saw the first five minutes and, I don’t know, it just didn’t seem worth sitting through. Judging from the reactions, I made the right choice when I flipped over to the Family Guy.
Like I said, unclear. You think it went your way, I think it went my way - neither of us is the creator, so we can’t be sure. Well, actually I am still sure that I’m right. Can you recall any other of their message episodes that’s as ironic as you think they’re being in this one? Their pattern, up until this supposed nega-ep, was to beat the audience over the head with the moral using hyperbole until one of the kids states flat out what the show wants us to learn. When Christopher Reeves sucked feti dry for their stem cells, we were supposed to agree that his attitude was disgusting, not think “Ha, that’s what anti-stem cell people think pro-stem cell people are like!”. When the employees at the cigarette factory sang their “Hiddle lidey lidey” song, we weren’t supposed to say “yep, that’s exactly how those deceptive tobacco companies portray themselves”, we were supposed to be on their side. Now, all of a sudden they switch their pattern around with the Michael Jackson episode, and we’re supposed to take the whole ep as a characiture of the enemy’s POV, rather than an exaggeration of what the creators see as reality? Sure - and the fact that it “never occured to [you]” that they might not be catering to your little prejudice (that blacks routinely overexaggerate the extent of racism) says nothing about you.
I didn’t think they caricaturizing the attitudes of “blacks,” just Michael Jackson.
I didn’t say that they were characturizing the attitude of “blacks”(quotes?). And again, when have they ever characaturized their targets by having their targets’ attitudes actually manifest within the reality of the show in a way we’re supposed to view as over-the-top and thus wrong?
I just noticed pepperlandgirl’s example of the Biggest Douch episode. It’s funny that she viewed it as ironic “in the true sense of the word” when they weren’t being ironic at all. John Edwards isn’t literally a douch, but the creators of the episode do have a negative opinion of him, so they weren’t being ironic by calling him a douch, they were being figurative. Again, they were using hyperbole to make their point. The fact that her initial example is actually fodder for my argument is what’s ironic.
Do you think that Parker and Stone actually believe that white cops are racists who het their kicks from framing rich black men?
I’m trying to clarify where you’re coming from.
Huh? I used that episode as an example of when they’re not being ironic. I said
Perhaps I mis-punctuated and should have had a comma after “case” instead of of a period. I definitely see now that I should have been more clear, but I definitely meant the opposite of what you think I meant–how ironic!
I don’t think anybody was supposed to walk away from the episode and think “Hey, he’s a pretty alright guy. I think I would like to pay him thousands of dollars so I can talk to grandma.” They said he was a douche and they meant he was a douche. Contrasted to Michael Jackson–they said he was a normal guy but I don’t think they meant he was just a normal guy.
That there are racist white cops who get their kicks from attacking rich black men (by framing or otherwise)? According to that episode, yes. Can you explain why you think they believe otherwise? Is it only because you think that that’s a ridiculous position?
Oh, sorry. I thought you were being sarcastic when you said “that was literal”.
Because I thought it was obvious they were parodying Michael Jackson’s paranoid allegations.
Well, I deserve that. I actually feel bad about that because, along with ironic, literal vs figurative is my biggest pet peeve. How ironic! 
I should probably shut up now.
I guess this little exchange has shown me that the show works (or doesn’t work) for people on several different levels. I honestly thought the cops in the Jackson episode were so far over the top that it was meant as a jab at Jackson, but now that I’m looking at it from your POV, I can easily see why it could be the exact opposite.
You didn’t ask me, but I’m gonna answer anyway. Just please don’t articulate my paranoia about cops by sounding all skeptical and reasonable. I’m a black man in America, dammit. My general distrust for cops is a fine whine. (Yes, I spelled it with an ‘h’ purposely.)
I haven’t made up my mind what I believe yet, nor do I claim to know what’s in Matt and Trey’s hearts. But here’s what I do think about that particular episode:
My interpretation is that Michael Jackson is so far gone weird as a big ol’ kid who refuses to grow up and accept real adult responsibilty and employ typical adult distance from children that everyone THINKS he’s a pedophile even without a smoking gun. South Park shows that even if the allegations of police racist brutality and a frame-job that MJ and his supporters purport could be proven true, people would STILL have a hard time believing he’s exactly innocent. It’s more at: “Everyone is convinced this man-boy is a liar – but what if he isn’t? What if he’s just that weird?” Thus the humor in that episode isn’t parody but irony. The things they did nail MJ on were his pattern of irresponsibility and questionable parenting. If you look at the episode, they don’t bring up child molestation charges so much as they do his other documented oddball behavior: naming his kid “Blanket,” dangling him out of hotel windows, making him cover his face, MJ’s constant playing and fascination with other kids, plastic surgery, using the word “doo-doo,” etc.
That’s pretty much exactly my take on the episode.
Well, for an indifferent fella, you sure defend SP’s satire a lot. And what satire may I compare it to? Vituperative old Juvenal? Joseph Heller’s Catch-22? The usual gang of idiots at MAD back when Bill Gaines was alive? Sorry, SP loses to all of these and more. You can’t compare bad things to good and expect the bad things to look better.
And again, the response is, Either you find this child’s death funny, or there’s something wrong with you. That sounds mighty snobbish to me. I’m sorry, but you are flat-out wrong. I am not a bad person for not laughing at this crap.
I have wondered if Kenny’s deaths are aimed at gallows humor, or if they’re a sign of a truly sick sense of humor that glories in pain rather than sublimating it. And for the majority of the audience, it really seems to be neither. It seems no one ever thinks about it. A while back, the Portal of Evil unearthed a Japanese website that featured SP characters drawn more like Miyazaki characters. Among these was one of Kenny’s body impaled on a spike. The reaction of a number of POE posters was, “Wow, I’ve always laughed at Kenny dying, but he’s always just been a circle and a rectangle. When it looks like a real kid, it makes me feel angry and sad.” But for individual viewers, the question must be asked anew. For you, gallows humor. Thanks for clearing that up. How about the next viewer? Or more importantly, SP’s creators, the inscrutable Stone and Parker?
Watch this show with fresh eyes. It’s a bad show. Jokes are poorly written and mistimed. The satire is aimless; attacking “everyone and everything” bespeaks lack of focus. Each character is an asshole without reason, individual characters being differentiated more by degree of assholishness than anything else. Yes, the kid’s death could be gallows humor, but when Stoner and Parker have failed at all their other tasks in writing the show, it’s doubtful they could get that right. I believe they’re wallowing in their own perverse humor and have bumbled into convincing the public that there’s a deeper point. There isn’t one.
Still want to watch? Knock yourself out. But don’t delude yourself into thinking that Stone and Parker have some deep philosophical point, or even a shallow one. It’s a twenty minute fart joke tinged with a truly sick sense of humor.
I’ve seen enough back in the day. I watched a long time thinking, “It can’t be this bad. Everyone’s raving about it. It has to get better.” I doubted my instincts too long. Once in a while since, I’ve surrendered to pressure and tried again. It’s always the same. South Park is a bad show, down to the last episode. I don’t have to sniff every turd to know which end of the dog it came from.
At least tonight with the hippies was a lot better.
don Jaime. I never claimed to be indifferent to the show, nor did I say you were a bad person for not liking what I enjoy. I did call you a humor snob, but the funny thing about snobs is that most snobs can live with being called a snob without feeling insulted. “Either you find this child’s death funny, or there’s something wrong with you,” was never a statement I made, so please don’t attribute it to ME. I have said, “some of you-all are taking this the wrong way” which is not the same thing. As for the “gallows humor,” hey… my real answer was “dunno,” the rest are WAGs I pulled out my ass. I’m glad you got something out off it. I spent more time trying to remember the Dead Baby Jokes you insensitively edited out of your quotes.
Actually I hadn’t watched much South Park at all since season 2 until this past month, so I am seeing it with fresh eyes. Sometimes it’s a bad show. Other times it’s funny as shit. I find the satire anything but aimless, although “undirected” and “lacks focus” are probably fair complaints. Mistimed, poorly written jokes happen in every comedy, even in your precious satires of Catch-22, and the Gaines era of MAD.
I like the fact that each character is an asshole without reason because PEOPLE are often assholes without reason, with individuals differentiating themselves more by degrees of assholery. (Can you tell I teach public school?) Just look at the antisocial jerks who get banned around here weekly.
I’ll think I will keep watching. Thanks. I’ll hang on to my delusions, too. One of them is that I’ll someday have a sane conversation with a humor snob about this show.
P.S. If you sniff dog turds, you really need a new hobby.
You could apply the same faulty reasoning to Looney Tunes. Switch a comically powder burned Daffy with a realistic depiction of a duck which has just been hit point blank with a shot gun blast.