Excellent point.
Agreed with “address the real problem.”
Immigration is just one of many pressures on unskilled labor. The reality is that between globalization and automation, the ability to support a family on unpaid labor is not coming back. We need to improve education and training options so that we can stay globally competitive. We also need to think creatively about how to harness the power of the “gig economy” more effectively. We can’t sit back wishing for the good old days. We need to be flexible and aggressive and driven if we want to be competitive.
We need to enable mobility so that people can move to places with more opportunity. Single payer healthcare will help. Creative solutions for affordable housing will help. Affordable childcare will help.
We need to better integrate our cities, so that Latinos are not the “other”.
Finally, we need to wait. Mexico and Central America are rising rapidly. This won’t be a “problem” for much longer.
Who “sips” martinis by the pool?
Martinis are chilled drinks served in stemware and consumed in several swallows, before they warm too much.
/fighting ignorance
I agree we need to develop a faster method to process applications to immigrate to the US. Publicize it heavily both here in the US and in foreign countries.
We can’t accept everybody. There’s only so many jobs and resources. Quotas are needed by country. So that we get a mix of Hispanics, Eastern European, Asian, Middle East, and European. I know we’ve done that in the past and it works. We just have to make it a quick and efficient process. So immigrants aren’t told the waiting list is years long.
At the same time we’ll have to tighten and protect our Southern border. Consider this as a National Defense priority and budget funds accordingly. Various strategies can be employed. Electronic surveillance with cameras, motion sensors, drones ext. Increased patrols and limited fencing where it’s really needed. Fencing alone will not work. It’s just something to slow people down until the border patrol can get there to detain them.
Libel hasn’t been criminalized.
If you are serious that bigotry should be a criminal offense, how many Dopers would be free today? We have anti-religious bigots, anti-liberal and anti-conservative bigots, anti-baby bigots. What a Trumpian idea!!!
Opposing bigotry is like opposing bullying, it’s a Rorschach Blot. People see in it what they want to see. Obvious things like joining the KKK are one thing, but is calling someone a “Jesus Freak” bigotry? When Richard Dawkins mocks Christianity, is he being a bigot? What if someone has a Stars and Bars tattoo?
Why not just jail and publicly shame as traitors the big agra interests who undercut the American worker by illegally importing labourers and have them work in abusive conditions?
Yes he is. And I agree with BigT. I am all for throwing people like him in jail.
Funny, this proposal sounds familiar - oh wait, it’s almost exactly what the 1986 immigration reform law said! Except for the quotas part, but we already had quotas anyway. Too bad the “penalize the employers” part never materialized.
Really?! Thanks for pointing that out. I have long believed this was a good way to go. Maybe on some subconscious level it was unknowingly influenced by that law. I wonder why it didn’t succeed?
Maybe, for one, because the border security was not adequately funded? A guess.
But a good point was made upthread about how migrant workers do the hard, backbreaking work in the fields that nobody else wants. But then that is tantamount to slave labor. Maybe we need to seriously consider paying them a fare wage. At least min wage.
Edit: it was usedtobe’s excellent point made, upthread at post 16.
E-Verify, OSHA, and the IRS.
Make it just as expensive to hire a foreigner as to hire a citizen.
Make it just as expensive to hire an illegal alien as to hire a legal alien.
If it’s not against the law to move here, then there are no more “illegal” immigrants. Bada bing bada boom, problem solved.
Your “pie in the sky version” scares the living shit out of me.
But can our support systems afford that?
I think I’ll join you in that too.
Why are the illegal immigrants who protest the US, refuse to learn English, break the law willfully, get to have anchor babies, etc being protected by the SDMB generally? Who here is an child of an illegal or legal immigrant whose parents have refused to learn English, refuse to pay taxes, flood social media with anti-USA tirades? In general violent destruction vs peaceful demonstrations? Refusing USA law and demanding their own special laws?
The USA should be the leader but not to the point of it’s destruction. IMO
“It is not a problem and just fine.” said no direct victim of these people ever.
What other country allows this and has no problems? Britten, France, Germany? I don’t think we should follow these footsteps.
How do kids brought up this way turn out to be?
Enforce the laws we have, the borders we have, put some effort into intelligent efforts as denoted up thread. I do not support making my family live in abject poverty or in a stone age just so other people I know who got here illegally get to use what I have made & earned, taken by the likes of the majority of the SDMB if they are in a position to do so and give it away to people who make no effort to earn it.
Magic bullets do not exist, fear of the different has not disappeared, and not working with in that is doomed to failure. IMO
There is a big difference in feeding others and inviting those who do not follow human rules to be allowed to live in our house. IMO
Being willing to help others ( Which I have done a lot ) does not make me stupid enough to trust them & invite them into my house. That is a lesson I learned several times the hard way.
I may be willing to die for you but damned if I’ll die because of you.
What support system? I don’t understand what the laws that say “you can’t move here” have to do with “support systems” at all? It seems like another question entirely, used to distract from the actual issue at hand, which isn’t really defensible. “You can’t move here” is a law which should be repealed. People have the right to move.
And they’re going to do it anyway. Like prohibition, we’re making criminals out of regular people for no tangible benefit. Might as well pass laws against bird migration. We have actual issues to work on in this country, and “OMG, people want to move from one patch of North American desert to another, slightly better one” isn’t one of them.
Well, this really isn’t true. It’s just that trying to “penalize the employers” has been rules-lawyered to the point that it is essentially impossible for the government to win a case. The employer is not permitted to inquire about a job applicant’s immigration status or whether or not they are a US citizen. The employer may not question the legitimacy of any documents an applicant offers, provided they are described on the official list of approved documents the government has decided are sufficient to prove the applicant is legally permitted to work in the US. If the employer suspects the documents are fraudulent, he can’t do anything about it. Even if he knows the documents are fraudulent, he can’t do anything. So, they way it works, as long as the applicant has submitted the required documents, the employer cannot be punished for hiring them even if they know the documets are bogus. Sure, there is a small issue of forging Federal Documents, but that is committed by the undocumented worker and it is too much trouble for the Feds to go after each and every one. About the only way an employer can be punished is if the government can show they assisted smuggling the undocumented workers into the country, and then hired them.
That said, I am not really all that surprised of all the responses that say, in effect,
there isn’t a problem to solve, let’s put our head back into the sand; those would be the ones that want to deny that the illegal immigration issue affected the outcome of the latest election. To those, I want to ask, what do you think the big issues that turned the election? It wasn’t entirely illegal immigration, although Mr. Trump’s “wall” and his desire to deport were a big part of his campaign. In short, I think what turned the election was that too many Americans were fed up with the Federal Government not addressing major issues affecting most Americans (such as illegal immigration, why prescription drugs are cheaper in Canada than in the US, etc…). No, the fact the Government would rather concern themselves whether or not a man dressed as a woman could use the woman’s bathroom than address any substantive issues was a big reason for Mr. Trump’s support. Now, this isn’t a Democrat or Republican issue, it’s a ineffective government issue and, at least for many Americans, Trump represented the best way to correct that.
I voted for Hillary. I was not happy about Trump’s winning. Now that it done, though, in my opinion the best thing to hope for is some changes get made that permits the government to address substantive issues instead of feel-good measures that, while may be well-intentioned, actually only affect a very small percentage of the population and can easily be handled locally. If the local solutions are in violation of Federal Law, well there are the courts for that. But, if the concerns of those who elected Mr. Trump are not addressed, they aren’t going to vote for Democrats, double so if the Democrats are seen as the reason.
I was a bit surprised how little dopers know about US immigration laws, particularly in comparison to those of other countries. Immigration quotas are a result of the KKK? Really? I guess that makes sense if you consider anyone who doesn’t think like you do is a racist, but otherwise it just doesn’t make sense. Canada has immigration quotas, is/was the KKK active in Canada? Mexico has immigration quotas. Just about every [del]industrialized[/del] nation in the world has quotas on immigration. Also, the idea that anyone that sets foot in the US should be allowed to stay is just plain unworkable. It would probably be at odds with Interpol as well as violate a whole lot of extradition treaties. That is, if criminals know that they can go the US if they are wanted by the local authorities and will be allowed to stay, well let’s just say that it would undermine law enforcement efforts throughout the world.
I am also surprised by how many dopers seem to confuse the terms “migrant workers”, “immigrants”, and “illegal immigrants”. These are three different and mutually exclusive groups. While, if one was pedantic enough, one could argue that “illegal immigrants” are a sub-set of “immigrants”, but in accepted usage, the term “immigrant” typically refers to someone who has met the legal requirements for immigration.
Now, as I have asked for everyone else’s solution to the problem, I’ll propose mine. First, I’d expand Medicare to cover all Americans. Use employer and employee taxes to pay for it (along with the money already going to Medicaid), with the intent that the employee tax would be equal to the amount employees currently pay and the employer tax to the amount the employers pay. Employees who work for companies that cover their entire insurance cost would have to start paying, but I’d bet that someone who has an employer who pays their entire health insurance bill can afford it; everyone has to make sacrifices. Employers would be free to offer supplemental Medicare insurance.
Now, with all Americans covered by Medicare, an undocumented resident would not have proper Medicare documentation. Care would be given, but the recipient would have a larger bill to pay. Since we would then be talking about money owed to the Federal Government instead of discrimination of employment, fraudulent documentation could be run down and not only prosecuted for forgery, but also the issue of the Medicare portion of the bill. The rules are different for money with the Feds, as anyone who has owed money to the IRS will tell you.
Now, existing undocumented workers would probably offered the option of registering with the Federal Government to get proper documentation, or return to their country of origin. Kind of an amnesty, yeah, but that would provide a way to justify charging new undocumented residents their medical costs. They don’t want to be responsible for their healthcare, don’t come to US illegally.
Just try to move to any other country in the world. Sure, if you have enough independent income to cover you housing, food, and healthcare, you can get a visa and they will let you in. If you have job skills the target country feels they need and have a company willing to guarantee your job, they will let you in. But, the visas are subject to a quota and even in these instances, your visa may be delayed due to the quota. You try and go there saying, I just want to live in France (or Mexico, or Canada, or any other country) and I think I’ll be able to find a job, they are probably going to tell you that as a visitor you are not allowed to work and if you do, you will probably be deported. Oh, also, as a visitor, the time you can spend in the country is limited (which is why your passport gets stamped when you arrive). No passport, you aren’t getting past the immigration station.
People are gong to immigrate, no question, but they don’t have to do illegally. File the required documents, state your intent and how long you plan on staying and how you are going to support yourself, go ahead. Try to sneak in without doing any of this, don’t be surprised on the outcome.
Dude, I have a now-American relative who hasn’t learned English and she’s a LEGAL immigrant. Why do you think “being too stupid to understand that your English won’t improve unless you practice it” correlates with “wetback”?
And illegal immigrants are way too scared of being kicked out to go on social media with anti-USA tirades; heck, legal ones are already terrified of being kicked out because some asshole decided they were illegal and didn’t give them a chance to prove they were not; I’ve known people who’d had residence or nationality for years and who were terrified of the police, never having done anything illegal unless you count shoplifting a rubber band on a dare when they were 13. You need to retrieve your head from wherever you’ve misplaced it.
Actually, there are visitor visas to the US which allow you to work (in fact, are intended for people who will be working), and there are many countries where you can look for a job while on a non-working-visitor status (which is illegal in the US).