Dude, where did you find this?! It’s awesome!
Again, that’s only if one completely buys into the pro-choice view. According to the pro-life view, there already IS a baby. I think it’s problematic to suggest that it’s perfectly fine to inflict the consequences of fetal alcohol syndrom on it, provided that one decides to end its life afterwards.
I agree that this debatge is not about whether the fetus will be carried to term. I’m merely pointing out that the statement “It’s just a simple women’s health question” implicitly assumes the pro-choice view to be true. (Or more specifically, the extreme pro-choice view. I say this because there are pro-choicers who fully acknowledge the humanity of the unborn, yet who argue for abortion anyway.)
My doctor told me it’s fine for me to have a glass of wine if I want to while I’m pregnant, even a couple of times a week. I just don’t feel like drinking so I haven’t taken him up on it.
His advice is in direct opposition to current thinking - that women shouldn’t consume any alcohol whatsoever while pregnant because there is no known safe limit. Although FAS only affects the children of heavy drinkers, Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder links learning difficulties, behavioral problems and a stack of other things to light alcohol consumption in pregnancy. My doctor seems skeptical that alcohol is responsible for all the things being blamed on it.
Around the time I fell pregnant, Tasmania’s Children’s Commissioner was quoted as saying that “Theoretically no women of child-bearing age should drink alcohol, full stop, no matter how unfair that sounds.” I think that’s a major over-reaction.
Doesn’t it take a while for FAS to set in? If we’re talking about a first trimester abortion, I doubt the embryo is going to deteriorate so badly just from a few nights of heavy drinking. Also, is it really all that unpleasant? Again, we’re talking about a very tiny embryo.
I think someone in America said something about how all women of childbearing age need to be consider themselves “pre-pregnant” and plan accordingly–live their lives safely and so on because of the impending life within. Blech. To quote Chuck Heston–“from my cold dead hand!” (as regards my booze).
I would say no, based on the idea that you might change your mind. The effects of drink/abuse on the fetus, like abortion itself, aren’t something you can take back.
Wrong.
In the context of THIS PARTICULAR DEBATE, the statement “It’s just a simple women’s health question” implicitly assumes that the pregnancy will be terminated, and that there will be no baby to suffer the (possible) consequences of alcohol consumption.
Your position that the fetus will suffer consequences between the drinking of the alcohol and the abortion procedure rests on an assumption that the alcohol will cause immediate symptoms and suffering in the fetus. That position does not appear to be supported by any of the descriptions of FAS that i have seen.
Even if we accept the anti-abortion view that a fetus is morally the same as a human being (i don’t accept this view), your position (in the context of this particular debate) is the medical equivalent of arguing that a man about to be executed should not drink alcohol because it will damage his liver, and shouldn’t smoke because it will damage his lungs. Pointless.
Does FAS even exist for the early fetus? FAS is a collection of symptoms, most of which would have no relevancy to a first trimester fetus anyway.
I don’t understand the question. If you’re sure that you’re not going to bring the baby to term, why would you concern yourself with the morality of taking a small risk of harming it before you terminate its existence? Odds are that the hypothetical you who plans to get an abortion won’t be too concerned with the well-being of the fetus (barring it being a planned pregnancy that is being sadly ended due to lack of viability on the fetus’ part), so I don’t see why it’s an issue. It’s like asking if it’s worse to…nah, mods won’t like the analogy in IMHO. Nevermind.
Aww. Can you PM it to me?
Well, it would be closer to, say, the warder or the executioner smoking in the condemned cell and making the prisoner breathe in their second-hand smoke. I agree on the “pointless” comment though, I mean, where’s the sense in making sure the foetus is in perfect health when it’s killed? 
I beleve it was the CDC, and this recommendation comes from the understanding we now have that there are certain health issues that are best under control before pregnancy even occurs, if the fetus/baby is to become healthy, and to protect the health of the mother. This is not to say that you can’t drink (I don’t actually think this was one of the recommendations, unless it was not to drink to excess), but that women should have adequate levels of folic acid in their system, get diabetes under control, not be obese, etc. (All good advice anyway, of course.) The folic acid is especially important, because folic acid affects spinal tube development, which happens very early on in pregnancy…before most people would know that they were pregnant. And the diabetes & such are more dangerous for the mother during pregnancy than when not pregnant. It’s just common sense to follow this advice, even if you think that any pregnancy you may have will be terminated. (As some people have pointed out, minds can change and situations develop differently than we think they will sometimes. These are long-term issues, not one of “should I drink tonight or not?”) My doctor reommends anyone of childbearing age who is sexually active to be on prenatal vitamins for this reason (and he’s no anti-abortion zealot by any means), and he has done so since before this CDC recommendation.
Need I remind you that this is IMHO, not Great Debates? I’m not going to play junior mod here, but I would like to remind you of which forum we’re in.
Maybe you’re right about FAS, and maybe you’re not. Even if you are correct though, I think that a great many people would consider the notion of fetal alcohol consumption problematic… even if one intends to kill the fetus afterwards. It’d be like forcing a man to drink, then justifying it by saying “Who cares? He won’t suffer permanent symptoms, and besides, we’re going to kill him anyway.”
And yes, I realize that pro-choicers would disagree with that analogy. I’m not here to argue for or against abortion. I’m here to point out that the statement “It’s simply a matter of the woman’s health” implicitly assumes an extreme pro-choice position, whereas those who hold contrary viewpoints may hold other “humble opinions.”
Why might others object to exposing the fetus to alcohol, even if the fetus will be killed? Any number of reasons. First, the OP said nothing about when the abortion would occur, so even if FAS does not occur immediately, that wouldn’t necessarily justify drinking. Second, they might not accept your claim that FAS will not be immediately inflicted (for whatever reason-- medical grounds, ignorance, whatever). Third, there is the issue of whether it’s right to inflict damage on someone – even mild, non-permanent damage – knowing that this person will die soon. And fourth, as others have articulated, there is also the possibility that the woman will change her mind and decide not to abort.
Again, I’m not trying to start a debate about whether abortion is right or wrong. I’m merely suggesting that people who say, “It’s only a matter of the woman’s health, nothing more” are viewing this issue through a stronly pro-choice filter, that they aren’t necessarily considering all the parameters, and that people who don’t adopt an extreme pro-choice view are likely to have other “humble opinions” on this matter.
Well, I mean with that logic, you could say, “Maybe the embryo suffers ill effects when I drink, maybe it doesn’t–maybe it ‘enjoys’ the mild buzz before the abortion.” If, as was pointed out, FAS doesn’t emerge until much later, are a couple of drinks, or even a few nights of drinking, suddenly going to make changes to the embryo/fetus? And will it even be unpleasant?
I think perhaps some educatin’ about FAS is in order here.
First, as already stated, it’s not a “thing”. You can’t do a blood test or tissue screen for it. It’s a collection of symptoms that very occasionally appear in infants of mothers who drank heavily while pregnant. Not a glass of wine a night, more like a fifth of Jack Daniels a day. Symptoms vary, and they range from very severe to wouldn’t-know-it-if-you-weren’t-a-doctor. The symptoms are as follows:
Of these, only these apply pre-birth, in even the most extreme cases:
* Heart defects
* Deformities of joints, limbs and fingers
* Slow physical growth before and after birth
* Small head circumference and brain size (microcephaly)
And of those, none are painful to infants with FAS, so I’m buggered if I can see why a fetus would mind them.
Yes, living with FAS sucks. Being the parent of a child with FAS sucks. But that’s because of living skills, social development and learning disorders and sometimes medical procedures and surgeries - none of which a fetus has to deal with.
This is not Great Debates.
This is not Great Debates.
This is not Great Debates.
As I’ve said, I’m not arguing for or against that position… nor should we do so, I daresay, if our goal is merely to discuss the diversity of opinions on this issue.
I’m curious what this post means. Does this mean we’re not allowed to post cites, or we’re not supposed to back up our opinions with science, or we’re just not allowed to care too much about the issue or fighting the ignorance in the thread?
In other words: Okay, this is not Great Debates. Got it. And so whose behavior should change and how, and is this **Czarcasm **the Poster or **Czarcasm **the Moderator speaking?
Remember that it’s ultimately up to the woman to decide what to do with her own body. And the fetus is part of her body. It really doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks is right or wrong.
Obviously you think I am a murderer since I “killed” a fetus (see your use of “kill” above). But to me it was just a simple women’s health issue. My prescribed birth control pills failed to work so I had a simple preventative medical procedure. The end, and none of your business.
Again, let me remind you that I was articulating how a pro-lifer or a moderate pro-choicer would view this issue and how this would color their opinions. My own views on abortion are irrelevant to this discussion, which is why I refuse to go in that direction.
As for whether it’s “ultimately up to the woman to decide what to do with her own body” or whether “the fetus is part of her body,” those are precisely the sorts of topics that make for great debates.
BTW, I did not introduce the word “kill” into this discussion. See Shoshana, for example, who said “I am pro-choice and also think abortion is a culturally-sanctioned form of killing.” Even mhendo, who objected strongly to one of my previous statement, described the fetus as being “terminated.” Whether this killing and/or termination is justified or not is a matter of (again) great debate, and I will not let myself get sucked in that direction.