It does vary, and the fact that my family’s ethnic traditions varied from the “standard” American “Emily Post” type traditions caused a lot of misunderstandings between my MIL and me when we were planning our wedding.* A lot of folks who do follow the EP-style customs often forget that manners are different based on where you’re coming from, and what’s rude in one culture is the polite way to do something in another. With my family, it would’ve been rude to not have an open bar (or not have alcohol available at all), whereas for a lot of folks, alcohol at a wedding is a completely optional feature.
*My favorite one to tell is when we were talking about me going wedding dress shopping with my brother (Mom had died less than six months before, so he stepped in to help), and she inquired as to what kind of sleeves my dress had. I turned to her, confused, and had to explain that very few wedding dresses these days had sleeves anymore. They exist, but they’re not popular and many are not flattering on most women.
As it happens, I have a friend who prefers to be referred to as neither male nor female. It does, in fact, tend to flummox people. As you might expect though, traditional gender conventions are a bit irrelevant anyway in this particular case.
Personally, as a girl, I developed the habit of holding doors open and saying ‘Ladies first’ to whoever was behind me. Particularly entertaining when done to a male teacher at a girls’ school. I’ll often follow conventional ettiquette rules with elderly folk I think will appreciate it, everyone else is treated as equals.
Your assessment of my life experience is flawed. I have actually fumbled for the door at the same time as a cross-dressing male friend who frostily informed me that jut because he’s wearing a dress and heels doesn’t mean he’s no longer a man. Not all crossdressers are trans or gay. Eddie Izzard has a great stand-up routine about it - very informative. (and funny, of course.)
And I’m not sure what your definition of pre-op is, but it is very definitely possible to be looking at two physical males, both in dresses and heels, one of whom is a pre-op transgender living and hoping to be treated as a woman, and the other of whom is a cross-dressing male with quite the ego about opening doors for women. There is no way I can think of for the uninformed person to tell the difference.
Actually, mine are just as likely to step in out of fear of what I might do to him. Better a light stropping from them than a real throw down from me.
That brings up another one though - about the woman being too delicate to open large doors for herself. In my twenties I used to get rather annoyed when men opened doors for me; I took it as an insult, insinuating that I was weak or incapable. Finally, a friend at work explained that he had reached for the door not because he thought I couldn’t open it, but because he thought I shouldn’t have to. ever since then I’ve liked the tradition.
In the 70’s, most churches would not allow a bride to come in with bare arms, much les with bare shoulders. It was considered really daring and trendy to choose a dress that had a removeable jacket so that the bride could bare her arms during the reception.
In this case MIL missed the last thirty years of change in bridal fashion. and the bride may have missed the last six months, during which dress designers have scrambled to meet the demand for sleeved wedding dresses in the wake of Kate Middleton’s lovely and modest choice.
I see where you’re pointing out that some people have missed changes in fashion.
Q: “What sleeves did you have?”
A: “I didn’t have sleeves.”
I’m not seeing a misunderstanding. Who misunderstood what? It seems to me that both of you communicated clearly and both of you understood what the other was saying.
I’m also not seeing an etiquette problem. Who perceived or warned that X act would be or was improper? I can’t see in that conversation where anyone misunderstood anything or where someone committed or perceived a breach of etiquette. You’re both talking about an event that had occurred in the past.
My grandmother ensured she passed many of these little things down to us.
No children in black
No money as gifts
Thank you cards for everything
No gifts mentioned in any shape or form on invitations
No discussion of money/earnings etc
All condiments decanted in to appropriate containers- no bottles or jars on the table
No white or black to weddings
No evening dress in the afternoon
I know all of them, don’t always stick to them, feel guilty if I don’t!
I know, there is a strong trend toward this sort of thing in several parts of the country. The main name it’s known by is genderqueer. Anyway, genderqueer and transsexual communities are aware of each other, acquainted with each other, and generally cooperate pretty well together, while each is pretty conscious of the difference. Like anything, there’s some overlap around the edges.
I know. That’s what I’ve been saying. There’s a difference.
Each is conscious of a sharp divide between them. There’s a lot less cooperation between transsexual communities and cross-dressing communities than there is with genderqueer ones.
I also know these things are in flux all the time, so there’s no point in getting dogmatic about a single point of view, when there are so many. Shake on that?
I think she is simply saying the the change in etiquette has been the arrival of strapless gowns in church (gasp! Even when I married in 1989 the priest made it clear that my shoulders WOULD BE COVERED in church or he simply wouldn’t hold the wedding. He was a little old fashioned himself.).
I am told sometimes that I’m a bit of a stiff or uptight. I seriously think it’s because
I say sir and ma’am (or Miss)…even to my students…especially to my students
I write thank you notes, condolence notes, birthday cards, etc. (Once I heard about the death of my professor’s mother and promptly mailed him a note. He was totally shocked. To me, it was just…well, duh.)
I quickly clear a space at the table when a new person approaches, usually standing when doing so (I’m always surprised at my coworkers who just smile and say hi with a mouth full of sandwich when our boss or another staff member comes to sit)
I bring a hostess gift. If it’s a major dinner, like a holiday, I try to make something (like pretty fabric napkins) or bring something that I think is useful. If I can, I bring dessert. I don’t bring wine unless asked (as I always offer to bring something) since I don’t know my wines that well.
I always try to be sensitive to people dietary/kosher/religious/etc. needs.
a handshake. Wtf is with this ‘wave’ shit when people are introduced? I try not to touch people if I can help it, but I was brought up to shake hands, and shake hands firmly.
a nod hello when passing stranger on the street
a small wave (like raising your fingers up from the steering wheel) when passing someone in your car, especially on county roads (I think it’s a small-town thing)
flashing your lights when you know an officer is nearby
opening the door for others (I teach my son to open the door for girls. Some things are OK as they are.)
deferring to elderly and treating them with dignity and respect, even when they’re half confused and bumbling
wearing sleeves in a house of worship and/or
adhering to dress code when visiting religious places - you will not see me in pants at a conservative shul. Or without pantyhose.
pantyhose! Duh! ladies wear them with pumps.
oh, and most importantly: Not dressing like a freaking hooker. Looking at women these days, you’d think it was really hard.
How exactly do you define pre-op? More precisely, how would you know whether a trans woman is post or pre-op? The state of a trans woman’s genitals is immaterial to her being a woman. If she says she is a woman, she is a woman. Unless you’re planning to grab her crotch to determine if she’s pre-op, it’s a moot point. And doing so is certainly not within the bounds of any kind of etiquette.
What pronouns does said friend prefer? It’s hard for our society to be completely gender-blind, without significant changes in the language.
And personally, for wedding gifts, I usually go with some sort of decorative home accessory, on the theory that the new couple is starting a new household. For instance, for my sister, I carved a wooden plaque with a Celtic cross and the saying “May the roof of this house never fall in, and may the friends gathered under it never fall out”. Is that an appropriate wedding gift?
When I met my soon-to-be husband 32 years ago he asked me how I would describe myself (good question!) I said, “I’m a liberated woman who likes to be treated like a lady.” Still true. And I try to extend respect towards others, even when I “wouldn’t go there.” (Not perfect at it though.)
Ann Landers used to say re thank you notes: you teach your kids that before you eat it, read it, wear it, spend it, play with it (etc.), the thank you note is in the mail.
Miss Manners says the problem with cash (or gift cards) as wedding gifts (or any kind of a gift) is that the recipient knows how much you spent on them. But I would prefer a gift of cash to something I couldn’t really use or just didn’t like (a picture frame or a glass swan or something). She doesn’t like gift registries or wish lists, either, but I think they’re a godsend. I never know what to get anybody, otherwise.
Five YEARS in mourning for the death of a child? Does it matter how old the child is (meaning, actually a child, not an adult)? Never heard this before. I thought parents and children were both mourned for one year.
Okay, so this was in 2009 when sleeves were still not in fashion. MIL got married in the 1970s, and goes to a church that frowns upon uncovered shoulders on brides. This, among other assumptions stated by her as “facts” about how the wedding would go, were misunderstandings that what I learned was traditional at weddings was quite different than what she learned. She and my SO had quite a few not-quite-friendly discussions about this fact during the entire process, as she was determined to make sure I was doing things “the right way”. Helpful or not, it was pretty hurtful to me at the time, as I was still mourning the loss of my own mother and didn’t want a replacement in that role.
Since getting married, I’ve studiously avoided wedding-related magazines, as I neither needed them nor were interested in them. I am, however, aware that sleeves are now a lot more popular and available than when I got married.
