So the dog I adopted in http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=803001 this thread and I are getting along swimmingly. He’s made huge strides, has a lot more personality, and stopped peeing in the house! He’s very affectionate; he’s super passive and easy-going and never shows any signs of aggression.
For those who don’t want to read the previous thread, Sammy is my rescue dog, 8-10 yo, had him for about 10 mos. 40 lbs; unclear breed but maybe gsd/chow mix?
But once several weeks ago my friend with a dog, Rusty (dog’s name), was dogsitting him. Sammy had a bone and growled when we tried to take it away. He had his collar on so we lifted his head by the collar and eventually he dropped it.
Rusty and Sammy have stayed together several times without problem.
There were no more incidents until today. Now I’m dogsitting Rusty and Sammy. I gave them both bones and Sammy went to town on his. It was getting kind of small and it was rawhide and I was worried about him choking so I tried to take it away. Sammy started growling, so I scruffed him (probably a bad idea but it’s kind of an old reflexive habit with me), then he started barking (I literally had never heard him bark before).
I grabbed a pair of scissors and used that to get the bone, but he actually bit the scissors. Eventually I got the bone away and he immediately reverted back to his normal, passive self. Actually, he went a drank a ton of water (which I think is a stress-relief method for him) and kind of went and pouted in the corner. I eventually came over and petted him, etc and now I think we’re on good terms again.
This is so much harder to deal with in a grown dog than a puppy. Also Sammy has a lot hearing problems, decreased vision and is kind of . . .strange. Like, he often stares at nothing, or when we’re going for a walk he’ll stop abruptly and sit for no reason. He makes relatively little eye contact, and just sort of looks off in random directions. The only way to really communicate with him is through touch. He obeys zero commands, basically he has no formal training but has kind of learned the rules of the house.
Rusty will growl at another dog for trying to take his food, but never at a human, and stops immediately when I tell him to.
Of note I imagine his bite isn’t as bad at most dogs because his lower front teeth are missing and only his canines and molars are intact, and he’s overall pretty weak.
Obviously this behavior can’t continue. I’d like to be able to continue to give him treats, but if I can’t change this behavior, then no more for him.
Any thoughts on how to change this behavior?
I’m pretty sure I’ve taken bones away from him before without a problem, although I don’t often buy them. I think it’s probably meaningful that both aggression incidents happened when he was around Rusty (also an older male dog who likes to be “alpha” among the dogs).
So far whenever Sammy approaches Rusty’s bones/treats, Rusty snarls/growls and I tell Rusty to stop and he does. Then I pick up the bone or move it further away from Sammy or something. Should I just let Rusty bite Sammy to show Sammy his place? I dunno.
To be honest…do you need to give both dogs bones when they are together?
I do it with my two, who are brother & sister and they can bite each other, whatevs. But I’d never give them bones around other dogs. It seems like putting everyone in a bad position to begin with and your job as human is to not put the dog in a bad position.
I mean, you want your dog to be able to relinquish items to you when asked. But a bone and another dog in the room, that’s a whole different level. I’d just avoid it altogether.
I definitely don’t have to. But Rusty has been pretty mopey/stressed since he’s been at my place (misses his owner, I work for long hours, new environment, etc) and at home he gets bones and he really, really likes them. So I’d like to be able to give Rusty a bone, if possible. Oddly, Sammy is usually the one not as into them. But if not no bones for anyone.
Update: Rusty guards his bones pretty well, and Sammy has been trying but Rusty’s been growling/snarling and he backs off. Sammy eventually did get Rusty’s bone when he wasn’t looking. I tried to take this one away and again got growled at by Sammy, but I managed to pick it up when Sammy put it down and turned the other way.
Also I’m a little worried it might progress . . . to food when Rusty is around . . . then bones even when Sammy is by himself . . . then food even when Sammy is by himself.
I wouldn’t automatically assume that the behavior will escalate, as it appears to be a temporary situation and with a rare-high value treat. That said you will want to work on it. While the term of the method I am going to mention is fairly new and trendy it is also a good way to filter out trainers that use disproved methods. If you can find a local resource that uses “Behavior Adjustment Training” or BAT they should be able to guide you in methods that tend to be far more productive in these situations.
As you mentioned that there were stress reliving behaviors after removing the bone this may be a very viable training method.
But this work is not going to be short term, and if there are aggression issues, which really are socialization issues removing the trigger is the best bet. If you have different rooms you could try just separating them while they are having their treats too.
Without actually seeing the behavior it is really hard to make any strong conclusions but I do want to mention to not follow any of the “dog whisperer’s” advice in this case. He was using methods and assumptions from flawed studies and the original authors of the “aggression” theory have fully retracted their claims and denounced the methods. If there is a stress response and aggression those methods will exacerbate the issue.
I don’t know of any online resources, but scruffing will actually increase stress levels and if used over a longer term will likely lead to an escalation. There is a world of difference between dominance and aggression in the dog world, and they also tend to be far better at translating human behaviors than we give them credit for. But some of these methods are not very intuitive for us humans and really do need to be learned.
While way past what is necessary but as an example, after rescuing several special needs dogs and helping other people with theirs I can easily pull food out of a dogs mouth or break up even a multi dog fight with out any real concern of being bitten. Unless the dog is fearful which is a separate problem and far riskier in my experience.
As I have my doubts about learning some of this via the internet I am being intentionally vague, but I also want to provide hope. It will take a little work but it will be worth it.
As I am not a credentialed dog trainer, please do not take the above cited method and just try to apply it. In many cases us humans need some feedback from a professional because sometimes it can be our own behavior that is the trigger for the stress portion that can escalate the behavior.
rat avatar, how well do these methods work on older dogs who . . . don’t really communicate the same way and as well as most dogs do?
TBH, he’s kind of like the dog version of autistic . . . and I don’t mean to minimize or belittle people with autism. It’s just the closest comparison I can think of. Minimal eye contact, behaviors that seem kind of purposeless (for example, sometimes he’ll stare behind himself, and just keep staring there, for 30 seconds—this could even be right before doing something fun, like on our way to a walk), lots of looking at nothing, also with hearing and visual difficulties?
That’s what I came to say. Guarding food/treats in the presence of another dog is a tough thing to change, but easy enough to avoid.
I use “drop it” with my dogs in training. Practice with something like a ball. Offer something better, like a piece of liver, and say “drop it”. Dog drops ball and you give liver and praise. Eventually it works for anything.
I quickly tested Sammy this AM by moving his food bowl around when he and Rusty were eating. Thankfully Sammy wasn’t aggressive at all, just eager to get back to his food. So that at least is good.
My opinion is first no more high-value treats when the two dogs are together. Maybe, after you work with him, they can be re-introduced, but I’d still not recommend a treat that can be hoarded - maybe have a special treat, one that’s quickly edible, that they only have when they’re together. A little tiff over a bone can quickly turn into $$$$ at the emergency vet when the dogs get into a serious fight.
When you have Sammy alone, then you can start working with “drop it!” (which I use with my dogs) and removing toys and food.
Set him up for success, not failure. Manage his environment to make sure you get the behavior you need.
Why don’t you give treats like dog biscuits or a nice Kong toy stuffed with kibble and plugged with peanut butter, instead of rawhide, which is dangerous, presents a choking hazard as well as an intestinal blockage hazard, and you wouldn’t have to take anything away from any dog? Just give them something they can both gobble down in the moment.
A couple weeks ago, I was walking in the park with my pibble when we ran into a neighbor who has two jack russel/chihua mix dogs. The male jack russel had a chicken bone or something – a huge ass bone that I would NEVER give to my pibble because bones splinter and wreak havoc on dogs. Now my dog is super friendly with these two, they’ve all hung out together and played and cuddled together. But I wasn’t letting my dog anywhere near the male with his bone. My dog won’t start a fight but she’ll damn sure finish one, so it’s just safer for everyone if I don’t put anyone in the position to want to steal or defend a bone.
If you really want to give the dogs bones, can you separate them? I have dogs that get along well 99% of the time, but when bones are introduced, everyone forgets their manners. I rarely give them bones, but when I do, one gets his bone outside and the other gets hers inside. I reverse who goes where each time so no one feels slighted.
No more bones when they are together. Work on “drop it” with toys and other items.
Also work on approaching the food bowl while he’s eating. Walk up, say “leave it”, make sure he sees you, and throw a treat in. Then gradually work up to asking more of him before the treat: to sit or back away from the food, then treat; to sit, you pick up the bowl, then put it down, then treat. You build a positive association for the dog with you interrupting his food, and you also build a good emergency command if he ever gets into something he shouldn’t and you need to him to stop.
I like this idea. Sammy is really tough to train (again weird communication issues) but I think something that forces him to drop his bone to get it might work.
But question, what about when he takes the bone from his mouth to get the treat, and puts it in his paws? And still gets growly when I get near it.
Yeah I like this idea too. I just feel really bad for Rusty because he seems kind of sad/lonely, and I know he adores bones (and he’s the good dog!)
I give them those kind of treats too but as I said above Rusty has a particular fondness for bones. And I guess one of the nice things about bones is that they do last a long time. But you’re definitely right about the dangers of rawhide.
I could def. do that if they both gobbled their bones quickly. But Rusty often likes to take his time . . . it would be like separating him for a whole day sometimes.
For some reason, this type of command-based training doesn’t seem to work on Sammy. I think his hearing is impaired . . . if he hears a scary noise he freaks out, but he doesn’t try to locate the source of a sound, doesn’t know his name (in all fairness he’s only had this name for a few months, who knows what he was before).
I wish I could show you guys this. Like right now he’s sitting in front of me. He looked at me for a while, then directed his gaze upward, then to the right, then straight ahead (there is nothing of interest in any of those directions). Whereas Rusty is always looking at me, responding to me, evaluating the environment, and the way he moves and looks around seems purposeful.
Maybe I’ll make a little video and post it.