Let me try this approach:
Asking someone smoking outside to not smoke in a public park is the equivalent (IMO) to asking a mother to take her kids back inside because they are too noisy.
It is just rude and totally out of line (even if done politely).
If you truly believe noisy kids should not be in a park then petition lawmakers to make it illegal. Don’t go hassling mothers in the park 
I freely admit I don’t get it. Thanks for trying to help.
Asking someone to go elsewhere with their unhealthy addiction is the equivalent of asking a mother not to allow her children to use a public park for the purpose it was designed for.
Right.
How is it different?
Both activities are perfectly legal that some might find irritating.
Excuse me for interrupting, but did anyone pick up on that word ‘polite’?
“Excuse me, I am terribly sorry, but I am trying to raise my children as free thinkers. Would you please stop reading that Bible in the park and put it away where they cannot see it? Thanks!”
If you don’t think that would be rude, I’m amazed.
I’m not surprised. This bit in the OP seemed a little like you were waving the bloody shirt:
No, it’s fine to ask. But it’s a request that can be refused, not a command that must be followed.
But I am smoking my cigar and you can’t stand it, the burden is on you to adjust, not me. I may, as a favor, adjust. But I am not obligated to do so.
Regards,
Shodan
Most smokers don’t like the fact that they smoke, but they like less when non-smokers point out their health problems for no reason. Smoking outside is harmless to everyone but the smoker. Therefore asking a smoker not to smoke outside due to secondary smoke is intrinsically rude, because it is intrinsically irrational, invasive and ‘uncool’, no matter how politely you state it. For example, ‘Please kill yourself, idiot’ isn’t markably politer than ‘Kill yourself, idiot’, the ‘please’ just seems ironic.
Instead, certainly in a playground, I would recommend asking the smoker not to smoke in view of your child, and explain that it could imprint upon the child that smoking is normal, and therefore may increase their own risk of taking up smoking themselves.
Well I do consider it rude to be dishonest. Free thinkers would read the Bible and not fear it. You are also making a moral judgement about the Bible reader, who may be an actual free thinker and educating themselves. But if someone asked me if I would stop reading something in the park, politely, without prejudging my motives, I would probably ask politely why it was a problem for them. And if there response was senseless, I would politely decline. But then I don’t understand politeness, so I guess that’s the wrong way to handle it.
BTW: In reference to my use of ‘themselves’ above, is there a polite way not to assume what the gender of a person is?
If it is a public place, and that person was already there when you arrived, politely asking will go a whole lot further than directing (if that means ordering and demanding). Speaking as a now FORMER (I hope it works this time) smoker, if you are there first and a smoker arrives, politely asking will probably get a decent response and compliance (it’s a matter of courtesy and you WERE there first). If you however make a point of “moving in on” smokers to do it, don’t expect any sympathy.
It isn’t dishonest. It might mean the person’s beliefs are inconsistent, but that is different to being dishonest. And dishonesty isn’t always rude, as anyone who has ever been asked “do these pants make my ass look fat” knows.
It is rude because it is requiring the other person to have to refuse to stop doing something regarding which you should not be asking. Saying no to people isn’t always a pleasant thing to do, and you are putting the person, however politely you do it, in a position where they have to say no to you to carry on doing something they want to do.
Now, even as a smoker, I don’t think asking someone to stop smoking falls into the category. I generally don’t have a problem with anyone asking me to stop smoking, even in a smoking area, if they do it politely. I will, dependent on the situation, accede to their request or move. It happened recently at a race track as I did not notice my smoke was blowing straight at a table a family were sitting at. He asked if I would mind moving, I moved… At a casino in AC, when I waited 45 minutes for a seat at the Blackjack table where smoking was allowed, and the harridan sat next to me asked the dealer to ask me to stop smoking… Well, she got a hearty no.
Tobacco smoke can and does trigger migraines and asthma attacks in people, sometimes even people who are otherwise healthy. Even a little whiff of smoke can do it. Probably a little whiff of smoke won’t have other health problems, but let’s not pretend that tobacco smoke is completely harmless to people who aren’t smoking. I’ve had to walk through a wall of smoke to get into the cardiac wing of a clinic…and promptly had to sit down and hack up a lung and use my inhaler. Fortunately, the clinic now prohibits smoking on the grounds, as well as all of the inside and just outside the doors. Unfortunately, there are STILL people who light up…usually right under a no smoking sign. I can only conclude that they’re blind or just plain inconsiderate.
Blaming smokers when there are other polluters out there that are far worse is the point. It’s always easier to pick on the little guy, even in cases where the only person he is hurting is himself.
For someone who seems so smart, I’m surprised that you missed the point, but then again, maybe you were just showing off and living up to your name.
I didn’t think dishonesty was the correct word after I wrote it, but its still smells like faulty reasoning, which stinks worse than everything else mentioned here to me. I also mentioned prejudgement of motives, which is probably the real offense. Yes, I argue the your second point all the time about what I consider the rudeness of placing obligations on me. Something that usually comes with a coating of disengenuous politeness. But I have received lots of arguments from people who aren’t considered rude, while many people consider me rude (apart from the ones who are justified). I think this is basically a dishonest system where people considered polite fall into two groups, actually polite, and manipulative. Thats just my observation. So I attempt to be rationally polite. Do not ask of others without justified necessity. Say please and especially thank you. And apologize if you are in any way wrong. People who think they shouldn’t make apologies, or use the dishonest form (I’m sorry you feel that way about the awful thing I did but am not taking responsibility for) are seem very rude to me. If anyone is in that category, I don’t want to have anything to do with you.
On the other hand, I am a smart-ass. I am coarse. I am abrupt. And I am brutally honest (the how does this look thing is not about honesty, but it is not a good idea to ask me either). But if your thin skinned, or can’t handle the truth, what can I do? Start lying? To complicated and unfulfilling. Don’t know why people want the gains taken from immoral deceit.
I suppose I don’t mind any truly polite request, because I have given up trying to follow the nebulous rules of politeness, and am quite willing to say no. If you’re not willing to accept no, you shouldn’t have asked.
I appreciate peoples efforts to explain the principles of politeness, but it just seems to be something defined by the offended, at least to me.
Using this “logic”, we shouldn’t complain about getting our pockets picked if a bank is being robbed elsewhere. The topic of this thread is stated in the title, so if you don’t mind I’ll just discuss that topic.
I’m not passionate about this topic, but I just read through this thread and have to disagree with those who insist that smoke is merely an unpleasant smell.
Secondhand smoke triggers allergic reactions for me – even small amounts that are relatively far away. When my father-in-law visits and comes in from smoking, I often end up coughing and wheezing, even when I am still two rooms away, just from the smoke left on his breath and clothes. I’ve learned that when I hear him come in, I need to quickly and discreetly go upstairs for a while until the residual smoke dissipates. I can also get itchy eyes and a scratchy throat from stopping too long behind a smoker’s car in a traffic jam. Too long near smoke or a heavy smoker’s clothes and I lose my voice completely. I’ll also have to take a shower before I sleep or the smoke residue in my (long) hair will keep me coughing all night.
I promise that this is not just in my head. Most often, I notice the physical reaction first and only then look around and spot a smoker.
I have similar reactions to cat dander, even when it’s just on clothes or furniture and the actual cat is not present. I was mystified recently as to why I lost my voice in the middle of a friend’s dinner party. Days later, I discovered that she has a cat who was kept out of sight during the party.
I’m not interested in lobbying to outlaw smoking, but smokers should know that when they smoke in public, they are creating a rather wide zone (many meters) that I cannot enter without unpleasant reactions. This is most frustrating in cases like playgrounds or picnic areas where I end up having to pack up my kids and leave because the area is not large enough for me to escape the effects of the smoke.
I’m not sure how common my situation is. I know my mother has the same issue, but my husband and children don’t.
Actually the logic is asking “why are you so concerned about pickpocketing when bank robbery is so much worse a problem? Isn’t it more likely that your financial situation is due to having ten thousand dollars stolen from your bank account than have five bucks taken from your wallet?”
And this is even assuming you have suffered any pickpocketing at all, which has not been demonstrated.
Frankly, I am not so sure about that last part in particular. People can convince themselves of a lot of things, and there is a bit of overlap between actual allergic reaction and what amounts to hypochondria.
At any rate, if it is actually the case that a smoker’s breath two rooms away can actually trigger your reaction without any psychosomatic component, I would say your sensitivity is well out of the average, to the point where the burden shifts back to you to avoid it, not on others to spare you. I have heard of people claiming allergies to laundry detergent. Maybe it is even true, but that doesn’t mean the rest of us are obligated to stop using Tide and start beating our clothing on rocks down by the river. As Spock would say, the needs of the many must take precedence over the needs of the few.
Regards,
Shodan
Smoking is a need now?
And tobacco smoke sensitivity is much more common than previously thought. Epidemiologic data coming from communities where strict smoking laws have been enacted recently show lower rates of ER visits and hospitalizations for asthma and other respiratory diseases occurring among nonsmokers after the laws were inacted.
I am very sorry for your severe medical condition.
Have you considered living in a bubble?