On call means your ass comes IN when I CALL.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

@drachillix

I wonder if you have ever worked around acute care medicine. Almost all areas have some kind of an on call system. EMS and fire departments are famous for this as well. Scheduling for every conceivable situation is not cost effective, having on calls is.

I wonder if you’re familiar with the difference between saying “Some might say employers should be responsible for doing X” and “Most employers do X.”

I’m sure many hospitals and ambulance companies do operate in exactly this way. And hospital administrators and ambulance company executives get rich while you always have to asterisk your weekend because maybe you’ll get paged into work and lose your job if you don’t come in.

You recoil with horror at the idea of a crew playing ping-pong. I say keep them playing and axe a six-figure marketing director or two.

[Antigen]

@MeanOldLady

Sounds about right. Notice he didn’t answer my question.

Sorry, been working overtime this week, not much time for the SDMB, sadly.

Here’s how the initial call went:

Me: “Coworker, I think I need you here.”
Coworker: “Oh no, Antigen, what’s going on?”
Me: “(describing exactly what is happening, number of specimens, problems, etc)”
Coworker: “Aw, jeez, Antigen, isn’t Bob there? Can’t he help?”
Me: “He IS helping, but he’s got to get back to the main lab because they’re crazy too, and they need to take dinner breaks.”
Coworker: “I JUST sat down to dinner, Antigen. Just now - can I even eat? Can I call you back, I’ll eat quick?”
Me: “Um, I guess? Call me in a half hour?”
Coworker: “Ok, just let me eat, I’ll call you”

So… she really didn’t want to come in, and I hesitated. I should have been more firm and said, fine, eat, then get in the car. I hate confrontation in general and I know that by trying to avoid an argument about coming in, I screwed myself. But she also never called back. And then in the meeting we had with the supervisors on Monday, she lied about calling back. Said she tried and couldn’t get through. Which is absolutely not true and I had backup on that, since Bob was there and could defend my side. We have a triple-backup plan because it’s very important for people to reach the blood bank - if the phone is busy another line rings, and if they’re both busy a THIRD line rings loud enough for the core lab to hear, just in case. She did NOT call. The result of the meeting was that she had to admit she shouldn’t have tried to talk her way out of coming in, and she got a lot of shit for not calling back. And the bosses sent out an email to reinforce the rule that it is absolutely the blood banker’s call about whether the on-call list is to be used, and the on-call person is supposed to drop everything (within reason) and come in. The phone call should go “I need you here” and “Ok, give me 40 minutes, I’ll be there”. The end.

She’s not being disciplined at all, which really pisses me off, but I guess an apology was better than nothing. And she did look like she felt bad, I think that when she saw how stressed it made me, and how busy I really was (looking back at the work logs) she felt guilty. But it was weaseling out of work, and she knows it, and knows that everyone else knows it. I mean, she was on call the night before, and has been on call several times in the past month or two, and she calls in every night to check on the blood bank, make sure they’re ok. So her not calling back after I told her I did need her… that was a little blatant. I was also happy to hear that there wasn’t any bitching while I wasn’t there, just her trying to get her story straight before I could defend my side.

[Rex_Goliath]

@drachillix

What if its a larger than average fire, we need 4 or maybe 6 crews. So do We always schedule 6 and let 4 of them play ping pong all day most of the time?

From talking with ER doctors and nurses, and having known quite a few firemen, I believe this is exactly the situation we deal with. Well, when ping pong gets boring they switch to mild pranks and farting contests, but the idea remains the same.

[curlcoat]

@Carol_Stream

Paranoid much?

I worked with almost all female coworkers for most of the 35+ years I worked, and it isn’t paranoia. If you don’t fit in, those harpies will gossip about you behind your back, right in front of you, to the boss, to the cleaning people and anyone else who will listen.

[Nightingale]

@Kimmy_Gibbler

Others might say it’s the responsibility of the employer to hire enough staff to meet all of their demand without requiring employees routinely to work longer than conventional workweeks in the form of unpaid, on-call labor.

I’m a Recovery Room nurse. If there is an emergent surgery in the middle of the night, or on a weekend or holiday, someone has to come in to recover that patient. And we actually get paid for being on call (a pittance if we aren’t called in, time-and-a-half if we are). It’s not exactly fun being on call, but in my business it really is a legitimate need, and thankfully we are well compensated for it.

OTOH, I can’t imagine being expected to wait by the phone to get called in to work at the movie theater or ice cream shop. . . especially if I wasn’t getting paid for it!

[CrazyCatLady]

@Kimmy_Gibbler

I’m sure many hospitals and ambulance companies do operate in exactly this way. And hospital administrators and ambulance company executives get rich while you always have to asterisk your weekend because maybe you’ll get paged into work and lose your job if you don’t come in.

You’ve never worked a job where you take call, have you? For one thing, you don’t always have to asterisk your weekend–that’s what the call rotation is for. Everybody takes turns so that nobody gets stuck with all the shit, the shit including actually working the weekend shifts. And frankly, being on call isn’t that big a deal, unless the shit really hits the fan. You make sure you have your cell or pager, and you go about your normal activities.

Sure, you can’t go out of town or have more than a couple of beers in an evening, and once in a while you get called in and miss part of a party/movie/meal. Big whoop. Under your plan, you wouldn’t be able to go out of town or have even one beer and would be guaranteed to miss the entire party/movie/meal because you’d be stuck at the hospital or station house, mostly just twiddling your thumbs. That’s a total no-win situation, right there.

[muldoonthief]

@Kimmy_Gibbler

Nightingale, who I quoted in the paragraph above the line you quote from me, mentioned that she is also expected, as a condition of her employment, periodically to be on-call.

I’m not sure why you think it would cost a fortune. They pay your wife now (paid at 10%) for being on-call, which, if not needed, has no tangible benefit to the hospital. Surely such diminishing returns have not been reached and past that an extra employee (paid at 100% and who would relieve the need to put employees on call, and of course, to pay them an on-call premium) would have nothing to do during his or her shift at the hospital.

I’d say that on average, my wife gets actually works about 10-15% of the time that she’s on call.

At 15% utility, that means her time costs about 31% of what a straight time person paid for the full shift would cost.

At 25% utility, her time would cost 45% of what a straight time person would cost.

So yes, an on-call system saves the hospital some 70% of what keeping people in the hospital, doing absolutely nothing, would cost.

And I just asked my wife, and she prefers this system. In her unit, the day time shift is mostly scheduled cases, with the occasional emergency. The night shift is totally emergency only - they don’t schedule any procedures after 4:00 or so. And you can’t have people who only work the night shift. The skills needed for the job have to be used regularly - a nurse who only did one or two procedures a week wouldn’t be able to keep her skills up. I can’t speak to jobs different than hers, but I suspect it’s the same for other on-call jobs. So you can’t hire dedicated night shift workers who rarely do procedures - you would have to have day shift nurses working nights as well. And she’d much rather get paid 10% for being home, doing whatever she wants to do, than get paid straight time for twiddling her thumbs at work,which would also have no tangible benefit for the hospital. And don’t even say there’s other jobs she could do - if it’s real nursing work, then you couldn’t have a person who might get called away to an emergent procedure doing it, and if it isn’t (e.g. administrative), you’re going to piss off a lot of nurses who don’t want to do that kind of work.

[bathsheba]

@Antigen

On call means your ass comes IN when I CALL. Is it like this everywhere? Do all coworkers suck?

Nope. When I call, my coworkers send their donkeys straight in.

[Bites_When_Provoked]

@curlcoat

I worked with almost all female coworkers for most of the 35+ years I worked, and it isn’t paranoia. If you don’t fit in, those harpies will gossip about you behind your back, right in front of you, to the boss, to the cleaning people and anyone else who will listen.

I’m currently the only female in an otherwise all-male environment and I get a variation on this. Every time I try to engage in a group conversation they either entirely ignore me, or give me a look like, “Go away; the men are talking”. They don’t initiate conversations with me, either.

So basically I’m not allowed to talk to them (on pain of being ignored) or be part of the group.

[curlcoat]

@Bites_When_Provoked

I’m currently the only female in an otherwise all-male environment and I get a variation on this. Every time I try to engage in a group conversation they either entirely ignore me, or give me a look like, “Go away; the men are talking”. They don’t initiate conversations with me, either.

So basically I’m not allowed to talk to them (on pain of being ignored) or be part of the group.

Still probably better than being ignored as they gossip about you. How long have you been there? Maybe they’ll get over themselves.

[kanicbird]

You can’t change her (or anyone else), only yourself. Yes you may be able to get her punished, but IMHO that can’t help and in the end will only hurt you (you reap what you sow). I suggest ask yourself why this happened to you (not the incident so much, but the emotional response) and what can you learn from it. Incidents happen to teach us things, how to react to them in a way that is not hurtful to us or others.

What can you do to avoid this happening in the future?

One thing suggested is to use the authority you have to order her to come in.

You can’t change her (or anyone else), only yourself.

God bless you

[MeanOldLady]

Someone’s been reading their Successories catalogue.

[drachillix]

@Kimmy_Gibbler

You recoil with horror at the idea of a crew playing ping-pong. I say keep them playing and axe a six-figure marketing director or two.

Most ambulance companies are lucky to have a six figure anything. The place I worked the whole operating budget was a couple million keeping 12 vehicles on the street.

Fire departments, being tax dollars, are heavily scrutinized, especially since a FD’s budget is 75%+ payroll. If all they rolled on was fires it would be cheaper to let many house fires just burn out.

[outlierrn]

@Antigen

If I made any mistakes at all they are on your head.

I have a manager that treats her call nights as a optional request, so I am sympathetic to your situation, but this statement is flat wrong. If you have to take a hard line with a coworker, call the house supervisor or the administrator on call to get adequate staff to practice safely, that’s what you have to do. A blood mistake can be lethal, if you make it, it is legally and ethically your bag.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@Rex_Goliath

From talking with ER doctors and nurses, and having known quite a few firemen, I believe this is exactly the situation we deal with. Well, when ping pong gets boring they switch to mild pranks and farting contests, but the idea remains the same.

I knitted a sweater working night shifts in the hospital lab (in between the nights when everyone and their dog came in at the same time and all needed a complete work-up).

Bites When Provoked, have you tried telling fart jokes? Guys really like fart jokes.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@Antigen

Sorry, been working overtime this week, not much time for the SDMB, sadly.

Here’s how the initial call went:

Me: “Coworker, I think I need you here.”
Coworker: “Oh no, Antigen, what’s going on?”
Me: “(describing exactly what is happening, number of specimens, problems, etc)”
Coworker: “Aw, jeez, Antigen, isn’t Bob there? Can’t he help?”
Me: “He IS helping, but he’s got to get back to the main lab because they’re crazy too, and they need to take dinner breaks.”
Coworker: “I JUST sat down to dinner, Antigen. Just now - can I even eat? Can I call you back, I’ll eat quick?”
Me: “Um, I guess? Call me in a half hour?”
Coworker: “Ok, just let me eat, I’ll call you”
<snip>.

The better conversation:
Antigen: “Coworker, I need you here - we’re swamped.”
Coworker: “I JUST sat down to dinner, Antigen. Just now - can I even eat? Can I call you back, I’ll eat quick?”
Antigen: “Eat quick and get in your car. I’ll see you in half an hour.”
I’m sure you realize this by now, but you gave her too many outs. Maybe it would help you to be more firm in calls like this if you consider that you are the patient advocate - you need help to give the patients the best care; it’s not just you asking for help for the hell of it.

[Typo_Negative]

At my job, there are 5 of us in my group in an on-call rotation, each taking the duty for one week. There are other groups for extra support with similar rotations.

Our rules are simple. When someone calls with a problem, even if they leave a voice mail, I have 15 minutes to get back to them. If I can’t solve their issue, I call the next level support on-call. If I can’t get in touch with them, I call their boss at home, regardless of the hour.

They had better have a good reason as to why they couldn’t be reached.

[Little_Bird]

@anya_marie

I’ve worked with women like Cat Whisperer’s coworkers and it sucked. Women like that want to make eveeryone else as misreable as they are.

coughcoughCarol Streamcough*

[HMS_Irruncible]

@PunditLisa

My daughter, age 17, works for a local theater. Instead of scheduling these kids for actual shifts, they just put the majority of them “on-call” so no one knows whether or not they have to work until 1 hour before the shift is due to start.

If they don’t need them, they don’t get paid. If they need them, they get their regular pay. And if they don’t call or come in when they’re needed, they are fired.

I am 90% sure that if you check your state labor laws, that’s not even remotely legal to do without paying them for being on-call.

It’s crazy how businesses think they can exploit minors and min-wage workers. I once had a restaurant manager tell me I can’t take a break because “there are no breaks in the restaurant business.” Seriously. And I fell for it, because I was a kid.

[Turek]

@kanicbird

You can’t change her (or anyone else), only yourself. Yes you may be able to get her punished, but IMHO that can’t help and in the end will only hurt you (you reap what you sow). I suggest ask yourself why this happened to you (not the incident so much, but the emotional response) and what can you learn from it. Incidents happen to teach us things, how to react to them in a way that is not hurtful to us or others.

What can you do to avoid this happening in the future?

One thing suggested is to use the authority you have to order her to come in.

You can’t change her (or anyone else), only yourself.

God bless you

I just vomited a little in my mouth. I wish I could spit it on you.