On Feminism

[MaxTheVool]

@Jack of Words

Yet another rehash of the entirely unsubstantiated claim that a dozen self-professed ‘mainstream’ feminists (and iiandyiiii’s six imaginary friends) outnumber the…let’s stick with ‘shrill insane harpies’… Continually restating a claim that flies in the face of anything that might be drawn on as evidence is not a meaningful contribution to debate, even if you speak slowly and calmly…

I was most definitely NOT restating that claim. Or at least, I was not just re-asserting it. Rather, I was asking an entirely reasonable question… you believe one thing to be true about the world, I believe a different thing to be true. Assuming we are both honest people arguing in good faith, the question we should be asking is: “how can we objectively determine which of us is correct? what test can we run? what data can we look at?”. That’s the question I’m asking.

As far as I can tell, your evidence consists of:
(1) Your (claimed) life experience
(2) Your overall summary of feminists who post on twitter

My evidence consists of :
(1) My (claimed) life experience
(2) The (claimed) life experience of various other posters in this thread

So we could argue back and forth forever… I could make comments about how it’s always the extreme views that stand out in a medium like twitter, you could respond back, etc. But what would be much better would be some actual research, a survey, whatever, because then we would have some actual real evidence.

‘Feminism is not a monolith’, as some of you keep saying - not sure it’s the same some of you who view MRAs as a monolith of misogyny? How could moderate discussion of men’s rights possibly upset so many dictionary-dependent feminists? It’s almost as though its not really about equality at all…

Have I ever said anything, in this thread or any other, about MRAs?

Focusing on the difference between two elements of an analogy is not helpful - if the two elements were identical, it wouldn’t be an analogy. The question was one of ‘extremists’ being propped up by ‘moderates’.

Sure, but in this case, the difference is very relevant. If I belong to an organization, one that I consciously chose to join, then I’m making an implicit claim that I agree with at least some of the positions or aims of that organization. If people in that organization’s hierarchy do or say ridiculous things, there’s at least a reasonable argument that if I don’t denounce those things, I can be assumed to support them. If enough people in the organization’s hierarchy do or say enough ridiculous things, then the fact that I continue to be a member of that organization is, again, at least arguably an implicit endorsement of those things.

But that’s very different from just generally identifying with a movement. That’s not something you can join. It’s not something you can quit. And it’s not something that has a hierarchy, where specific people clearly speak for it. Someone high up in Greenpeace speaks for Greenpeace members in a way that no single feminist, or even no ten thousand feminists on twitter, speak for all feminists.

Men commit suicide more often because patriarchy! (A ludicrous concept, which insults and diminishes most women who have ever lived. A conspiracy theory that only survived because the ‘powerless’ who push it have the power of story, of myth, behind them - and always have).

I am not Trinopus and do not speak for him (her?). But I do invite you to respond to the part of my post discussing what reactions feminists should have to the higher male suicide rate, and what reactions you believe they do have.

You didn’t number your friends, Max, though I imagine they’re a trivial fraction of the ‘millions’ you were referencing (‘millions sounds’ so much more impressive than ‘20%’, or ‘one-fifth’ or ‘a tiny minority’, eh?) But can you at least tell me whether they’re outnumbered by all heathen-bashing, hateful extremists rocking up here to insult and misrepresent those who dare not to follow their religion?

Just to be clear, you believe that many of the people posting in this thread are “hateful extremists”?

[CCitizen]

@QuickSilver

It’s far worse than you think, Jack. It appears that Mother Nature herself is a misandrist bitch: Every American killed by lightning in 2014 was male.

It has nothing to do with nature – sadly more men make risky choices in life.

[QuickSilver]

@CCitizen

It has nothing to do with nature – sadly more men make risky choices in life.

Which is why feminism still has such a long way to go to achieve equality.

[Rune]

@CCitizen

It has nothing to do with nature – sadly more men make risky choices in life.

That’s true. Also the reason men die before women and gets thrown in jail more that women. Etc. also the reason there are fewer women in leadership positions and in certain STEM professions. Different aspirations, different goals, different choices.

[T.M]

If I hold a door open for a man I am well mannered, If I hold a door open for a woman I am a male chauvinist pig, It has happened more than once and has me beat

[QuickSilver]

@T.M

If I hold a door open for a man I am well mannered, If I hold a door open for a woman I am a male chauvinist pig, It has happened more than once and has me beat

Perhaps you ought learn not to stare at her ass so obviously as she walks past.

[andros]

@T.M

If I hold a door open for a man I am well mannered, If I hold a door open for a woman I am a male chauvinist pig, It has happened more than once and has me beat

I’ve heard this complaint more than once, and it honestly has me flummoxed. I live in the People’s Republic of Portland, one of the weirder and arguably more left-leaning cities in the US. I hold doors for people pretty often–men, women, and gender-variant alike–and I present as an obvious man. Never once in my entire life has anyone ever taken me to task for it. Ever.

I’m not trying to deny or minimize your experience, but I’m just amazed that it’s such a common occurrence for you.

[T.M]

@andros

I’ve heard this complaint more than once, and it honestly has me flummoxed. I live in the People’s Republic of Portland, one of the weirder and arguably more left-leaning cities in the US. I hold doors for people pretty often–men, women, and gender-variant alike–and I present as an obvious man. Never once in my entire life has anyone ever taken me to task for it. Ever.

I’m not trying to deny or minimize your experience, but I’m just amazed that it’s such a common occurrence for you.

I do not know if it has anything to do with the wrong time for a woman but I have seen a man being scolded for offering his seat to a woman, she was most indignant

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@andros

I’ve heard this complaint more than once, and it honestly has me flummoxed. I live in the People’s Republic of Portland, one of the weirder and arguably more left-leaning cities in the US. I hold doors for people pretty often–men, women, and gender-variant alike–and I present as an obvious man. Never once in my entire life has anyone ever taken me to task for it. Ever.

I’m not trying to deny or minimize your experience, but I’m just amazed that it’s such a common occurrence for you.

Weird. I have the complete opposite experience. Every person, man or woman, looks at me really weird when I hold the door open, sweeping off my fedora and bowing with a “Milady!” as I hold the door open for him or her.

[T.M]

@QuickSilver

Perhaps you ought learn not to stare at her ass so obviously as she walks past.

It is usually a woman’s eye’s that grabs my attention

[andros]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Weird. I have the complete opposite experience. Every person, man or woman, looks at me really weird when I hold the door open, sweeping off my fedora and bowing with a “Milady!” as I hold the door open for him or her.

Do it right and no one will bat an eye. Hold with the right hand, sweep with the left. Geez.

[QuickSilver]

@T.M

I do not know if it has anything to do with the wrong time for a woman…

Oh, you silver tongued charmer… lol.

@T.M

…but I have seen a man being scolded for offering his seat to a woman, she was most indignant

Did he offer his seat or a seat in his lap? The difference is subtle but important.

[T.M]

@QuickSilver

Oh, you silver tongued charmer… lol.

Did he offer his seat or a seat in his lap? The difference is subtle but important.

Oh you silver tongued charmer. NO I did not say tongue

[CCitizen]

@LinusK

Feminists rightfully condemn men who hit women, but their attitude toward women who hit men is somewhat different:

Women are perhaps right to take this attitude: there are few repercussions for a woman who hits a man. Despite the fact that men and women are equally likely to resort to violence in intimate relationships (and more likely to hit when there’s only one person doing the hitting) women are rarely arrested for hitting men, and when they are, they’re much more likely to get their cases dismissed outright, or to get a lighter sentence.

For example, when Lucie Slater - apparently a pop-star in England - beat her boyfriend so badly it “It also caused severe blood loss and permanent nerve damage to his face,” her ultimate sentence was “a suspended sentence, a two-year supervision order and 120 hours of community service.”

Thank you. The public must be educated about the discrimination faced by male victims of domestic violence. Unfortunately anyone who raises this issue is going to be subject to many personal attacks.

In USA this is the greatest violation of Human Rights since Slavery. I know the article is about UK.

[Miller]

@CCitizen

Thank you. The public must be educated about the discrimination faced by male victims of domestic violence. Unfortunately anyone who raises this issue is going to be subject to many personal attacks.

That’s an excellent point.

In USA this is the greatest violation of Human Rights since Slavery. I know the article is about UK.

That… not so much.

[Evil_Economist]

@andros

@T.M

If I hold a door open for a man I am well mannered, If I hold a door open for a woman I am a male chauvinist pig, It has happened more than once and has me beat

I’ve heard this complaint more than once, and it honestly has me flummoxed. I live in the People’s Republic of Portland, one of the weirder and arguably more left-leaning cities in the US. I hold doors for people pretty often–men, women, and gender-variant alike–and I present as an obvious man. Never once in my entire life has anyone ever taken me to task for it. Ever.

Yeah, I’ve never seen this ever, or heard of it happening, ever. Almost sounds like the kind of made-up story MRA types tell each other. I don’t know why these women would behave like this to T.M.

@T.M

I do not know if it has anything to do with the wrong time for a woman

Oh wait, I think I figured it out.

[CCitizen]

@QuickSilver

You may find that we outnumber you by 5 to 1 (conservative estimate). Do you require further proof that we are not fringe?

One thing where I agree with feminists is that indeed they have plurality of population and a majority of those not indifferent to gender. The best results show that 28% of people are feminists and 5% are antifeminists. The rest are indifferent.

[CCitizen]

@Miller

That’s an excellent point.

Thank you – anyone who does not share society’s biases will be abused by society.

[Evil_Economist]

@CCitizen

Thank you – anyone who does not share society’s biases will be abused by society.

If feminists are 28% of the population, does that mean that feminists don’t share society’s biases and are therefore abused by society?

[CCitizen]

@Evil_Economist

If feminists are 28% of the population, does that mean that feminists don’t share society’s biases and are therefore abused by society?

Actually, most people in USA and UK are very sympathetic to feminist ideals.