So don’t then. Live your life and fight the fight you want to fight. No one needs you as an ally.
I read your whole post multiple times over. That’s how I’d want it to go down.
But to be honest I’m afraid, after seeing him pregnant, there is a chance that deep in my heart, I might never accept John as a fellow man again.
I’d do everything in my power to never let this opinion out. I don’t think I’d have any problems continuing to address John as “John”, “he”, etc.
I have no problem with people identifying as women and having babies. I have no problem with women who cannot have children - they are still women. But my conception of man - my real life gender identity - is fundamentally incompatible with pregnancy.
This is the most shameful post I have made on these boards. It’s a topic which I would be loathe to speak of in person.
~Max
This is the other post in this topic I’ve been thinking about the most. I can try and put myself in the trans man’s position, and I can imagine constructing a personal identity, struggling to reconcile my body with social norms, and ending up concluding that I am a man.
I have no issue imagining a desire to have biological children, even a strong desire, but when I imagine myself as a pregnant trans man I face a major identity crisis. Because men can’t get pregnant.
This is more fundamental than having a penis. Men can lose their penises in accidents and they are still men. Men can be sterile and still be men. Men can be sexually attracted to other men instead of women, and still be men. I can work these out in my head. Not so with pregnancy.
~Max
This is easy to answer. It is the lesson of politeness.
Why should I treat people politely, even when it means saying something I don’t fully agree with?
Take your pick:
- Because you demand it, and if I refuse, I will get beat up.
- Because for this issue, that is the norm in today’s society.
- Because I respect your feelings more than I care about being brutally honest (or assholish, take your pick) about this issue.
I think, UltraVires, you and I would take this last option whereas some of our compatriots in the American political right would not. And I think some on the American political moderate-left are convinced by the middle option, which doesn’t (yet) apply to someone on the right who lives in a more conservative area.
~Max
ETA: It occurs to me that these loosely correspond to Kohlberg’s stages of moral development.
No one cares about your “fundamental conception of man”. Seriously. It sounds like you would treat a trans man, pregnant or not, with decency and respect. That’s all that matters. No one cares how you personally feel deep down inside.
But you’ve already said that you would do this - treat a pregnant man with decency and respect - even if you don’t really believe it. That’s what matters: your actions, not your deep down feelings.
This is sort of the crux of it. You are saying what was indisputable since the dawn of human history: men can’t get pregnant. But to say that you are made to feel “shameful.” And the best and only reason given so far is that some biological women who identify as male nonetheless still want to bear children and demand that you call them men—and that you should just shut up and do it and not logically question it.
That is simply not satisfactory for most people and the response is still, we don’t care, we don’t need you, just shut up and do what you’re told. People push back at that.
Hell, they might agree with that, but then ask that their K-3 children not be exposed to it and THAT is another atrocity and called a “Don’t Say Gay” law. Honestly, this attitude (shut up and do it) is what got Donald Trump elected. People push back when they feel threatened. Just shut up and do it is not something people will do.
It has been undisputed social custom for hundreds of years that women get married and take their husband’s last name. To compare this with a biological woman wanting to be a man but still act like a woman is nowhere near the same.
Did you read the OP? I understand someone who was simply born with the wrong parts. If a person is born with a uterus and wants to carry a child, perhaps that person was born with the correct parts.
It’s not about you.
Just treat people with decency and respect. No one cares about your deep down feelings. They literally don’t matter.
If you (or they) don’t want to treat their neighbors with decency and respect, then yes, they may face social consequences. That’s part of life. That’s not pushing people to vote for Trump - that’s just a bullshit excuse and rationalization.
Then why should I care about others’ deep down feelings?
You don’t have to. Just treat people with decency and respect. Your motives are irrelevant.
Is there any other issue that has such a “logical” defense?
Person: We should balance the federal budget?
Person 2: Why?
Person: Doesn’t matter. Just be a decent person and do it.
It’s no wonder people push back when that’s the best you got.
But that’s all this issue is - how folks should treat their neighbors. That’s what we’re talking about. That’s not the federal budget.
It sounds like you’re pining for an excuse to not treat your neighbors with decency and respect (or to justify your friends who want to do so). Do you honestly think you’re going to find that here?
Even this is not neutrally applied. If I demanded to be called “Mr. Stud Man” by my neighbors, most of them, if not all, would say “not happening.” Nobody would say I was being treated poorly.
Okay so you are going to personalize this and call my sincerity into question…while at the same time telling me to treat others with respect. How ironic.
It sounds like you are saying that transgender folks need to be treated with respect, but conservatives? To hell with them, no respect needed, they should just do what we say.
That’s not comparable to gender identity.
How is it disrespectful to ask people to treat their neighbors with decency and respect?
Okay, so if you would, tell me the difference, and in line with the thread why gender identity also encompasses me agreeing with a gender identity (male) that the person by his own actions shows that he really doesn’t believe it because he bears a child.
If you are just going to say be decent and do it, then you haven’t shown why that is different than my example. You don’t have to understand, for example, why I want to be called Mr. Stud Man, can’t you just make me happy and do it?
“Mr Stud Man” is not a serious request. There’s no recognized medical condition or status associated with this. No long history of discrimination.
It’s just silly nonsense, and if you’re reduced to this as your argument then there’s nothing to discuss.
If your friends don’t want to treat their neighbors with decency and respect, then they shouldn’t be shocked if they face social consequences for it which may include losing their jobs, friends, etc. That’s life.
In 1990, that could have easily been said of “pregnant men.”
Again you keep going back to “decency and respect” without showing why such a thing is “decency and respect” and not just indulging in someone else’ fantasy. This is a relatively new type of demand.
The acceptance of homosexuality, for example, won hearts and minds because of the stated idea that they just wanted to live their lives without being subject to scorn or violence. That has logical appeal that convinced people. People could look inward and see that some things they did were different than what others did and realize that there was no harm in others doing something different.
But this isn’t about just being left alone to live your life as you see fit. It is a demand on society as a whole to indulge in whatever you personally demand, much like Mr. Stud Man. There is no doubt in my mind that my friends are decent people and would be glad to come on board if someone would just explain it to them instead of telling them to shut the fuck up and do it. If you tell anyone that, then you will get push back and a hardening of the prior position. Again, Donald Trump’s election was the fault of this “do as I say” attitude towards long held beliefs.
I had hoped this thread would have promise, but it seems it hasn’t.