And that’s the problem, you don’t want to be wrong, even though you are.
To find out that there are other reasons to like the Cardinals than just Molina, maybe even in spite of Molina, should be something that opens your mind, not closes it.
But that’s a choice only you can make.
I don’t follow baseball. But I can conceive of it just fine.
I am a fan of Terry Pratchett. I think Small Gods is among his finest and most important pieces of work. I think Color of Magic is a minor work, and not really worth reading unless you’re into jokes about certain eras of fantasy. But somebody else could be just as much of a Pratchett fan as I am and disagree with me about either or both of those books.
Where on earth are you getting this idea that because somebody agrees with you about much of a subject they also have to agree about all of it? That probably works in basic arithmetic. It doesn’t work with much of anything about human society.
WTF?!
How on earth are they attacking you by not liking Molina?
You can only identify with them if they agree with you about all parts of the fanship worth mentioning?
I think you’ve got a really, really bad case of misuse of the either-or principle.
Diet of non-vegetarian Hindus can include fish, poultry and red meat (mainly lamb, goat but also beef, pork and wild boar[3]) in addition to eggs and dairy products.[4]
That’s not what this is about. It’s a question of identity: who is a man? Who is a Cardinals fan?
As evidently the Cardinals analogy didn’t stick, I believe both of us identify as Jews. Surely you are aware of the question, “Who is a Jew”? Do you have to attend services? Do you have to believe in God? Do you have to undergo a bar-mitzvah or bat-mitzvah? Most agree that you are Jewish if your mother was Jewish. Not all agree if the father was Jewish and the mother was not. To the question of conversion, some say the bath and circumcision are necessary. Others do not.
I think most Jews would say there are certain requirements, even though different people will disagree as to which requirements apply.
But some, I think, would go so far as to say anyone who identifies themself as a Jew is in fact a Jew. But in my mind this approach destroys the Jewish identity. My Jewish identity, mind you. There’s no point in having the identity if it only means you call yourself X.
~Max
It has nothing to do with my Jewish identity if another Jew, or a batch of them, disagree with me as to what I think qualifies somebody to be a Jew.
And that’s a very good thing; because, as you point out in your very own post, Jews do not agree on that issue. So if I could only identify as a Jew if Jews agreed on that question, then I couldn’t be one – even if I met every criteria on your list. (Which I don’t; but that isn’t relevant.)
And so deep down, could you harbor the thought that a person who identifies as Jewish isn’t actually Jewish?
Because that’s the point I’m making when I envision myself meeting a pregnant man.
~Max
You are sounding like one of the people who were against SSM because they said it would damage their marriage because it isn’t how they defined marriage.
Sometimes, it’s not all about you.
That’s a very apt comparison, and I think the same underlying ideas are at play.
~Max
Sure. I don’t think the “Jews for Jesus” are Jewish.
One thing though is that some trans people feel very strongly about identifying with their preferred gender. It’s not this nebulous concept that has a loose concept of identity, like with a sports team. Just like the OP has a strong view of what it means to be a man, so does a trans man. In fact, the trans man may have a stronger view of what it means to be a man, as they might undergo very drastic medical procedures as part of their transformation to become a man.
Gender identity and group inclusion in humans are very strong needs. It’s part of procreation, which is baked into our DNA. These aren’t things that we just do because it’s fun. It’s part of picking a mate and identifying who belongs to our tribe and who doesn’t. Not to say that we humans aren’t advanced and can’t change, but these concepts are not just things we do on a silly whim and can be modified without any problem. It’s going to take a long time to condition people to think of gender identity in a different way than what our DNA is trying to tell us.
Think forward a couple of centuries, to when humans are colonising the Moon, Mars and the outer planets. Enabling men and women to carry infants to term would allow a more rapid population growth on these distant worlds. There is nothing wrong with the idea of men giving birth, whatever the circumstances.
And so pretend you meet such a person. You have a choice when interacting with them: you could point out that you don’t think they are really Jewish, or you could not. I think we both agree that you probably shouldn’t make a row. But why not?
And this seems to be what UltraVires is getting at in the OP. If he meets a man who chooses to become pregnant, then deep down he won’t accept that person as a man. Then, why should he address him as a man?
I’ll quote my earlier post,
~Max
Right, and just as SSM didn’t end your marriage, a man having a baby won’t make your testes shrivel and fall off.
Pretty much all you are down to is insisting that others conform to your expectations.
I feel like we’re talking past each other, k9bfriender. I never meant to imply someone should change themselves to meet my expectations.
~Max
Because their religion is not my damn business unless they insist on trying to convert me.
Which is also true whatever religion they are. Not my business if they’re Catholic, or Hindu, or Jehovah’s Witnesses, or whatever.
And, more to the point of this particular bit of discussion, it’s got nothing to do with my identity, whether as a Jew or as anything else.
A, the major point) common courtesy, or what ought to be common courtesy
B, a secondary point) to avoid having people think he’s a jerk
C, a minor point) to avoid having people think he must be awfully insecure about his own masculinity to feel the need to insist on it in public like that.
Except that you won’t think of them as a man, or a cardinal fan, unless they do.
And then the idea that you would feel shame for it? That makes no sense. I do feel some shame for things I have done in the past, I can’t undo them, but I do feel bad about them. I don’t feel shame for things I am planning on doing in the future. If I thought I would feel shame, then I would simply not do it.
If I get your point, it’s that a pregnant man would harm you by causing you to feel shame in not thinking of them as a man. That’s why I am saying that it’s not all about you.
Here’s a sports example. I am a Steeler’s fan. If you asked my who their quarterback is, I couldn’t tell you. I couldn’t tell you their coach, or their running back, their win-loss record, or pretty much anything but the state that they come from.
However, back forever ago, when our school did an event at a Bengals game, the Bengals treated us like crap, and the Steelers were pretty awesome, especially their fans out tailgating in the parking lot. So, I’ve always had an affection for the team.
If this had been the Cardinals, and I told you this story of how the Cardinal’s players were cool to us, and their fans were as well, and I asked “Who is Molina?” would you tell me that I can’t be a Cardinal’s fan?
I do NOT agree with that. I only consider two religious groups evil- Scientology and Jews For Jesus. Volumes can and have been written about the evil that is Scientology. J4J’s engage in conscious lying and preying upon the isolated and ignorant. I consider it the duty of any who call themselves good to oppose evil.
Your assumption on meeting someone who identifies as a “Jew for Jesus” is that he’s one of the predators in that group, and not one of the victims?
No. There’s a total disconnect between someone else’s behavior and me feeling shameful. I don’t hold anyone but myself responsible for me feeling shame.
No, I would tell you Molina is the catcher of 18 years. But I would probably think to myself, that you aren’t really a Cardinals fan (but maybe could become one!). In my head you would get written off like that.
~Max
Sounds about right. If you ask someone why they are a fan of a certain team, it’s usually because that’s the home team when they were born. That I’ve actually put more thought into it and have a reason to like them somehow makes me less of a fan than someone who just grew up that way.
Pretty much the same as gender. If you never thought about your gender because it’s just how you grew up, somehow, that makes you think someone is less of a man because he has actually put a lot of thought into it.