On renouncing US citizenship (Aug 97)

You may recall the column: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/970808.html

In which Cecil follows up to the question of the guy who wanted to resign his US citizenship as a form of protest, with a modest contributory note from Your Not So Humble Servant.

Well, last Monday the US Supreme Court spoke, or rather did not speak, on the issue.

As was discussed, to resign your US citizenship you need to leave the country; some Puerto Rican Nationalists wished to declare themselves “non-citizen subjects” of the US while remaining in-place based on some convoluted interpretation of US sovereignty over PR, and a local court decision, and one actually got away with it.

Well, the US State Department took one good hard look at this and said, essentially, sorry, fool me once…etc. So when some more of them wanted the certificate of non-citizenship, USSD said: “No dice. And by the way, you, the first guy? We screwed up, you’re still a citizen”. One gent, by the name Alberto Lozada, then sued in federal court (the right place) to attempt to force the USSD – and the Commonwealth of PR – to recognize his non-citizenship.

The answer from USSD and the lower courts was: with pleasure, sir . . . if you’ll identify under whose jurisdiction you are, and register as a Resident Alien, subject to all the appropriate restrictions on your rights. Essentially they said, unless you show an intent to pledge allegiance to another sovereign nation, or emigrate to it, you may call yourself a citizen of Mars if you want, but we won’t. And BTW all your obligations as a US citizen will continue to stand until you really become an alien (and yes, aliens pay taxes too). SCOTUS has let stand this position w/o comment. So much for “renouncing US citizenship” in protest.

jrd

Geeez, sorta makes you feel like Uncle Sam’s property don’t it.

Aliens pay income tax but they do not pay capital gains tax, correct? If so, do foreigners pay capital gains on American corporations…how does this work?

It seems there is an incentive for billionaire type people to become stateless and remain in the United States.

Actually, you think that sucks.
Did you know I’m paying “Social Security” tax?
And I’ll never be allowed to collect.
Shows the whole purpose of that US social program, doesn’t it…
Oh, and I’m here on an F-1.

Kyberneticist: If you’re here on an F-1 presumably you won’t be around to collect Social Security anyway. But if you do immigrate you will be “allowed” to.

Cooper: I don’t know about capital gains taxes, but there is actually an “investor visa” into the US - it is available if you put (IIRC) $500,000 into a company to create jobs in a low income area, or $1 mil in a better-off area. Basically it’s US visas up for sale. Perhaps surprisingly there have been few takers.

Actually, I married a US citizen a few months ago. I’m just griping on behalf of other F-1 holders. It’s exactly because most of them will not be around to collect, that I consider this a massive theft.

Once I become a citizen, THEN start collecting social security. Not that it’ll still be around once I’m old enough anyway…

So what, you’re upset because you don’t get all your tax dollars back when you cease working in the US?

Somehow I doubt we’re the only country in the world with that policy.

No, it’s not about getting all my tax money back. It’s the fact that Social Security is supposed to be a “tax” charged in order to provide support later in life. If people are not going to be in the States for more then a year or two, why are they charged Social Security?
It just makes the validity of the whole program all the more questionable, in my opinion.

Well, for a couple reasons. Many people who come here on temporary work visas have the option to get permanent residence if their employer sponsors them. Many others marry US citizens and stay. There’s no way to be sure that the taxpayer isn’t going to stick around. Refunding their money when they leave would be impracticable and probably result in widespread fraud.

And your employer pays social security tax for you, too. Eliminating this requirement for nonimmigrant employees would effectively make it cheaper to hire aliens. I’m sure you see the problem here.

There’s also a thing called a Totalization Agreement (basically a pension coordinating agreement) that the US has with many countries. Under a totalization agreement, the SS taxes that the citizens of one country pay in another country can be applied toward their retirement pension in their home country. So depending on where you’re from you might be able to get those taxes back even if you do go home for good.

And finally I reiterate that I would like to see evidence that every other country in the world excludes temporary workers from having to pay pension taxes.

Are we in Cuba yet? :slight_smile:

Kyberneticist posted 12-05-1999 12:42 PM

Where did you hear that? SS isn’t a pension tax, it’s a tax to support the elderly. You have to pay an unemployment insurance tax, even if you don’t plan on being unemployed, and some your taxes go to pay for prisons, even if you don’t plan on going to jail. Why should you be exempt from paying SS taxes just because you don’t plan on growing old here?

TheRyan, this is purposefully confused by the government. Since SS benefits are determined in part by how much you pay in (your income level and number of years in the workforce) it seems that there is some idea that it is a ‘pension tax’. Of course when it was instituted the money flowed directly into the pockets of elderly who had never contributed to the program, so the reality is that it is what you say it is. Nevertheless many people feel that it is some sort of savings plan created by the government, and most administration officials have encouraged this misperception.

Oh, it is a pension tax. Well, a pension-tax-plus maybe. It’s designed to work pretty much as “many people feel” it does. Right now it can’t possibly work precisely that way because the SS system is younger than most of the people receiving it, but that’s how it’ll work in the future (if it hasn’t collapsed or been sold out to the mutual funds folks by then, that is).

The topic of international taxation is complex and lengthy, so forgive me for generalizing (there are exceptions to some of my comments), this is long enough already.

**On resident aliens paying U.S. income taxes: ** The rules are complex, but basically any individual who is physically present (or resides) in the U.S. for more than 183 days in the tax/calendar year, must pay full taxes on worldwide income. ((ASIDE: A person who is physically present for more than 90 days but fewer than 183 days pays tax a part-year resident))

Income tax means all income taxes, including capital gains tax. It’s nowhere near so easy to avoid U.S. tax as simply to have a fortune invested in Europe. Tax rules are complex, and taxing authorities ain’t dumb.

The U.S. has tax treaties with about fifty countries, and this complicates the issue. Mostly, those treaties are aimed at helping the individual avoid double-taxation, and clarifying which taxing agency has authority in what circumstances. Exceptions to the general rules I’ve cited above can be made, in different treaties, for pension payments, payments to creative artists, students, etc.

The complexity increases because U.S. citizens (and green-card holders – lawful permanent resident aliens) are taxed by the U.S. on their worldwide income, regardless of residence. Almost every other country taxes based on residence, regardless of citizenship.

Non-citizens who are non-residents pay taxes on their U.S.-sourced income only (prorata by physical presence if other determination is not feasible.)

**On U.S. social security taxes: ** Generally speaking, every person employed in the U.S. is subject to social security taxes, regardless of citizenship. This means that a non-citizen who works in the U.S. for (say) four or five years (fewer than 40 covered quarters under U.S. Social Security) will have contributed to U.S. social security but will receive no benefits from it. Tough: as several have said, it’s not a pension savings fund, it’s a tax.

The reverse is also true – a U.S. citizen working abroad is (generally) not subject to U.S. Social Security tax, but is subject to the social security rules of the country where he/she is employed. A U.S. citizen who works in Japan, for instance, for only a few years, would be paying into Japanese social security (higher rates than the U.S.) but would receive no benefit.

The major exceptions are that the U.S. does have social security treaties (called “totalization treaties”) with 17 nations (most of Europe and Canada). Such treaties, broadly speaking, try to overcome the problem of benefit eligibility for nationals working in other treaty state. For instance, a German citizen working in the U.S. for only five years would not normally receive U.S. social security benefits (too few calendar quarters of coverage); however, the terms of the social security treaty override that eligibility restriction – the German citizen would be able to collect a U.S. social security benefit, based on the period of coverage. The treaties are reciprocal for a U.S. citizen working in Germany.

Under certain conditions, the treaties allow exemption from social security tax in the host country. For example, a German citizen transferred to the U.S. for fewer than five years, by a German parent company, could remain covered (contributions and benefit eligibility) by German social security and be excused from contributions to U.S. social security, under the terms of the treaty.

So this is a long-winded way of saying that:
citizenship generally speaking has nothing to do with requirements for contributing to U.S. social security; except in the special cases covered by treaties (usually limited to a five-year transfer period.) Renouncing your citizenship will not affect your social security obligations.

Phew! Sorry to be so longwinded, my company charges big bucks for me to say stuff like this to client companies.

Don’t forget that Social Security is not a pension, it is an income insurance program. Big difference. Figure it out yourselves.

It’s true that Social Security is not a pension program. Nor is it an ‘income insurance’ program. SS is a tax, pure and simple. It’s merely one of your government’s many ways of reaching into your pocket, extracting your money, and giving it to someone else.


I don’t know why fortune smiles on some and lets the rest go free…

If you are in the US but here on a work visa, you often have to pay taxes to your resident country. So, ifyou work here, but are a UK citizen, youll be paying the UK taxes, which are huge, but US has an agreement so you get credit there for US taxes you paid…

ruadh:

Erik Raven:

TBone2

Social Security is not a pension plan. “Income insurance” is an interesting phrase that is pretty accurate.

Social Security was originally set up as a program to ensure the elderly without incomes were provided for. It was for cases such as widows whom had never worked and had no other source of income. (Hence the name “Social Security”.) Thus the structure of the program is a tax, rather than an investment plan. As set up, all the money paid out in a year was collected that year. Your money is not saved and invested for you to collect upon retirement.

This seemed a workable plan as long as the workforce was larger than the retirement pool. But then the baby boomers started to retire, making the retirement pool grow and the workforce paying in shrink.

Add to the shift in numbers the (wrong) expectation that since you paid in, you ought to be able to collect, and you have the formula for the problems with SS we’re currently seeing. Thus the speculations on how to fix it for the future.

Arguably the best option is return it to it’s original premise - providing for orphans and widows, and reduce the overall tax rate and let most people invest for themselves. However, the culture has grown to expect SS to work as a retirement plan. The second best fix is to change the structure to an investment system. I think that is what is trying to be done, but the problem here is paying off the people who are collecting now. There’s no money stored up to pay the current recipients, so that money has to come from the current collections. But if the current collections are going to pay out, then there’s nothing to invest for the future.

Now that you know the problem, let’s put the teeming millions to work to solve this dilemma.

<quote>My quotes didn’t work.</quote>

<blockquote>Did these?</blockquote>

A quote from someone…
The reverse is also true – a U.S. citizen working abroad is (generally) not subject to U.S. Social Security
tax, but is subject to the social security rules of the country where he/she is employed. A U.S. citizen
who works in Japan, for instance, for only a few years, would be paying into Japanese social security
(higher rates than the U.S.) but would receive no benefit.

Actually, in Japan most foreigners don’t contribute to either of the two national pension systems. One system (Kousei Nenkin) is similar to that of the U.S Social Security, with employer contributions. If you happen to become a fulltime employee of a company which has that, you’re in. The other (Kokumin Nenkin) is voluntary and is administered through local city offices.

And…

Upon leaving Japan, foreigners who have paid into the Kousei Nenkin system may apply to have up to 3 years worth of contributions refunded to them (I have done this). This generally works out to about 3 months of wages.

It is also my understanding that it is the responsibility of the U.S. citizen to see that he makes payments into the Social Security system on wages earned abroad, though I don’t think they ever bother to check up on anyone for that.

THE ISSUE, MORE OR LESS ISNT ABOUT TAXES, OR SOCIAL SECURITY PEOPLE… ITS ABOUT UNHAPPINESS WITH THE CURRENT STATE OF OUR STATE. WE FIND MORE AND MORE THAT EVERYONE WHO ISNT IN THE CURRENT RULING PARTY, AT CONGRERSSIONAL LEVEL OR ABOVE, FEELS WRONGED, OR FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM “SCREWED”. SO DO SOMETHING ABOUT, BRING RADICAL REFORM DOWN ON THEM, ABOLISH PRIVATIZED HEALTH CARE, AND GO LIKE CANADA HAS, SOCIALIZED… IT CUTS DOWN ON THE EXTORTION OF OUR TAXPAYERS AND MEETS THE NEEDS OF EVERY CITIZEN WHO PAYS TAXES. REFORM PUBLIC EDUCATION FROM THE UNIVERSITIES DOWN… STUDENTS WHO HAVE PAID TAXES, AND WHOS PARENTS HAVE PAID TAXES, SHOULD BE GETTING THE “PUBLIC BENEFITS” THEY ARE PAYING FOR, THUS SCHOOL SHOULD COST “BOOKS” ONLY… TUITION SHOULD BE AN ASPECT THAT LIKE LOWER AND MIDDLE SCHOOLS, ISNT AN ISSUE. OUR COUNTRY NEEDS TO GET SMARTER CITIZENS, AND FAST, OR ELSE THE GOVERNMENT WILL CONTINUE TO BENEFIT AT OUR LOSS.

HERES A NEW IDEA AS WELL, MANDATORY PHILANTHROPY, YEARLY BY THE 50 COMPANIES IN THE U.S. POSTING THE HIGHEST GAINS… SINCE THEY TAKE FROM US, AND MAKE MONEY FROM US, LET THEM ALSO GIVE BACK. SAD THAT IT MUST BE MANDATORY THOUGH… ROCKEFELLER, CROCKER, STANFORD… THEY FOLLOWED A CODE OF ETHICS, THAT WAS SINCE LEFT BEHIND BY A NEW IMMORALISTIC CUT THROAT SOCIETY. TAKE BACK YOUR COUNTRY PEOPLE… OR THEY WILL MAKE LAWS THAT MAKE SELF GOVERNING ILLEGAL. LIKE THIS “NEW” BRAND OF DEMOCRACY THEY PUSH ON YOU, THAT DOESNT INCLUDE MUCH OF YOUR SAY, BUT MORE BACKROOMS BARGAINING, AND MONEY EXCHANGING HANDS.

MAYBE NOW YOU ALL SEE WHY SOMEONE WOULD WANT TO RENOUNCE THEIR CITIZENSHIP, BECAUSE PERHAPS THEY FEEL AS I DO, THERE ARENT CITIZENS NOW, UNLESS SOMEONE WILL RISE UP AND LEAD US… AND BRING US BACK TO THE “PATH” THAT WE DEVIATED FROM.


TO HAVE WORKED FOR THE GOVERNMENT WAS NO WORK AT ALL, TO REFORM AND REBUILD THE GOVERNMENT, THEREIN LIES THE CHALLENGE.