SomEone is Being pEdantic.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
It doesn’t matter if the words have “no superior meaning” to you, whatever the hell that means. Proper nouns are capitalized in the English language. Do you see anyone over the age of seven posting about barack obama, ted kennedy, or france?
[/QUOTE]
I do it to annoy those who don’t like it when atheists diminish the importance of of their beliefs. Evidently it’s effective. Now try to bring something constructive to the table.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Is spiritualism a form of religion? People can believe in a transcendent something more without embracing specific doctrine. People can believe in a spiritual life without embracing myth and superstition. We can have a religious belief system and still embrace scientific discovery, factoring new information into our belief system.
When tradition and doctrine compels people to deny solid evidence concerning specific beliefs I’d call that choosing myth and superstition.
[/QUOTE]
Spiritual belief doesn’t embrace the supernatural? I’ve never heard it described that way. I thought it always had an element of “higher power” to it.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
The point I’m making is that even if I did attribute good acts to religion, the fact that religion was behind a given act doesn’t make it “better” in any way. Consider this scenario: A homeless guy is on the corner with a money cup. A christian, motivated by religion, puts a $10 bill in his cup. A godless person also puts a $10 bill in his cup. What difference could it possibly make whether or not the charitable act was motivated by religion? There’s no added value.
[/QUOTE]
I agree. The hungry person being fed doesn’t care if the person giving believes in God or not. I could say that statistically speaking the guy is more likely to get $10 from the believer than from the non believer but that’s not my point.
When we ask what moved person A and person B to give ten bucks we’d get two different answers. “Because I just like to help people” is not more or less valid than, “because my religion teaches me to have compassion toward others.”
Human development, our emotional , intellectual state is complex. There is no way for you or I to know what the best path is for someone else to make them a “better” person. Accepting that as fact, we can take responsibility for our own choices and their consequences and expect that of others. Per the OP, that means we don’t have to act like dicks to each other to be tolerant and within reason , let people find their own way. Religion for some, no religion for others.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I agree. The hungry person being fed doesn’t care if the person giving believes in God or not. **I could say that statistically speaking the guy is more likely to get $10 from the believer than from the non believer but that’s not my point. **
[/QUOTE]
I’d like to see that statistic.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Suppose religion disappeared tomorrow.Not just outlawed, but actually proven to the satisfaction of all believers that there is no god. Are you saying that these same people wouldn’t be helping the poor without it? I don’t believe it. I believe people are basically good (with many exceptions, of course). It serves as a vehicle for doing good deeds, but it is not a necessary component. Human compassion would pick up the slack. Secular organizations would ramp up their efforts and those who worked through churches would assist in that endeavor.
[/QUOTE]
A nice theory but rather pointless supposition. We have no way of knowing and it ain’t likely to happen. The fact is you have no way of knowing what is or isn’t a necessary component for other people. It’s because that is a fact that I stress the acceptance of religion and no religion as a valid path to follow. We can judge {as best we can}individuals and groups based on their actions. If they are feeding the homeless and needy great. If they are opposing human rights based on their religious beliefs we’ll address that as well.
btw; I believe people are a mix of good and bad but in general, something moves us forward toward human growth both in seeking scientific knowledge but in our relationship with our fellow man. People will choose to express that in different ways and that’s just the way we are.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I’d like to see that statistic.
[/QUOTE]
I think we’ve already done that on the boards but here
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Spiritual belief doesn’t embrace the supernatural? I’ve never heard it described that way. I thought it always had an element of “higher power” to it.
[/QUOTE]
I’m saying that believing in a higher power doesn’t have to be the same thing as believing in the Judeo Christian Muslim God as a separate being, creator and ruler of the universe.
Whatever the unsolved mysteries are it’s okay if people give them a spiritual or religious tone while we’re still in the process of discovery if that’s what works for them.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I do it to annoy those who don’t like it when atheists diminish the importance of of their beliefs.
[/QUOTE]
You just admitted to trolling. Nice job.
[QUOTE=Giraffe]
By trolling, we mean the posting of inflammatory comments for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of people.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
In my opinion, religion is what limits man. The impulse to look beyond is what will free man from the trappings of institutions that claim to have all the answers.
[/QUOTE]
Interesting you put it that way. For many believers the spiritual journey is exactly that, “the impulse to look beyond”
Though some religions may claim to have all the answers a lot of them don’t. They simply claim the right to seek and worship their concept of god in their own way.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
You just admitted to trolling. Nice job.
[/QUOTE]
Oooh, what you going to do? Report to a Mod?
I’ll probably hear the collective laughter down here.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
You just admitted to trolling. Nice job.
[Quote=Giraffe]
By trolling, we mean the posting of inflammatory comments for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of people.
[/quote]
[/QUOTE]
What part of capitalization do you actually consider a comment? (And you might want to reconsider your haste to post this sort of thing given the rather large number of comments that you post that appear to have no purpose except to rile up other posters.)
Further, consider the paragraph just below the one you posted:
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
The hungry person being fed doesn’t care if the person giving believes in God or not.
[/QUOTE]
Just as the poor inner-city youngster on the receiving end of a $1000 cash gift from a gang leader doesn’t care whether his benefactor believes in committing homicide or not.
“Violent inner-city gangs do good things along with evil things! Anyone who wants to eliminate all street gangs is an arrogant, short-sighted, Der Trihs-like poopy-head!”
You can see where this could go…
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
What part of capitalization do you actually consider a comment? (And you might want to reconsider your haste to post this sort of thing given the rather large number of comments that you post that appear to have no purpose except to rile up other posters.)
Further, consider the paragraph just below the one you posted:
[/QUOTE]
Ah, the expected response. Are you or any of the mods going to do anything about her flagrant violation of the rules? She just said she does it to annoy people. That’s being a jerk. Unless, somehow, it’s OK if you agree with the poster’s politics in general. What other reason could there be?
The mods can put her on “the naughty step” with me. I’ll look after her.
What’s that I hear?
[QUOTE=Jillyvn]
This, I think, is the direction I hoped the discussion would go in when I started the thread. Admittedly, I have started no religious discussion threads before and though I read most of them, I rarely if ever participate - so I should have known it would derail. When I read the article, I wasn’t reading with a broad brush of all religions. It’s more like utter amazement at the complete hysteria of the reaction in this instance amoung these people. Transubstantiation or no, I cannot believe this incident elicited such a bizarrely disproportionate response. I don’t think this is exclusive to religions, or a particular religion. I do think it is exclusive to the types of siuations noted above - on a grand scale or a small scale.
Regarding the atheists/religious folks acting like dicks issue: I get a little persnickety when I hear about stuff like this. Militant atheists (of which I am certainly not one) can be dicks at times, but the worst it gets is accusations of stupidy, verbal jarring etc against their philisophical opposites. For militant religious types, the reaction to disbelief/non-adherence to the tenants of the faith- can be (can be, not always are) violent, hurtful and ultimately more than a little frightening. That can bring out the asshole in me when I’m chatting with a fundamentalist. Thankfully, most of the faithful people I know are moderates.
i also think the earlier point (can’t remember the poster) that the more rational religious people do not seem to adhere to the all the tenants of their religion is really interesting in this context. The more flexible the rules of adherence, the more personal the faith becomes, and its seems there is less need (desire) to force the rules of their faith on everyone else. I tend to think that faith, or lack there of, should be a personal and private experience. I’ve no wish to evangelise atheism, and I do hate to be evangelized by militant religious types. I love a good discussion about religion though.
ETA grammar
[/QUOTE]
IMO it’s important that we , believers and non believers alike, learn how to improve our dialog and respect each others right to choose our own way. I can understand some resentment and hostility toward religion, but I don’t think it helps move us forward. Standing up to religion when it gets out of line is another matter. I agree with you and am willing to let people’s faith or lack of it be a private matter but our lives touch and there will be confrontations. I refuse to let religious beliefs be an excuse for shoddy, ignorant behavior. The same goes for the imagined intellectual superiority of some non believers. If you claim the right to worship as you choose , or not to worship at all, then please extend that right to others. A good healthy discussion can be a positive thing, but imagined superiority, or outright hostility, doesn’t seem to accomplish much.
[QUOTE=I Love Me, Vol. I]
Just as the poor inner-city youngster on the receiving end of a $1000 cash gift from a gang leader doesn’t care whether his benefactor believes in committing homicide or not.
“Violent inner-city gangs do good things along with evil things! Anyone who wants to eliminate all street gangs is an arrogant, short-sighted, Der Trihs-like poopy-head!”
You can see where this could go…
[/QUOTE]
I can…I can’t see that it’s relevant to the discussion at hand though.
Perhaps the atheist giving ten bucks is cheating on his wife. perhaps the believer is secretly paying a male prostitute for gay sex. Perhaps perhaps…so what?
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Further, consider the paragraph just below the one you posted:
[/QUOTE]
Did you say the say the same thing to Guin?
Why not?
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
Did you say the say the same thing to Guin?
Why not?
[/QUOTE]
Waaah? Kalhoun not capitalizing the names of deities is somehow on par with Two and a Half Inches of Fun? Um, okay.
Damn.