As far as what would be a cure or considered to be cured of alcoholism…
I’ve heard it (alcoholism) described as being a disease of the body and of the mind both.
One has a body that can’t use (alcohol).
One has a mind that can’t NOT use (alcohol).
The above is based on the concept that an alcoholic is not capable of consuming alcohol safely/moderately. But the alcoholic is of a mind that can’t leave alcohol alone. The alcoholic obsesses about alcohol whether they are actively using or not.
AA works (if/when it does work at all) by temporarily relieving the alcoholic of the mental obsession. The alcoholic gets a “reprieve” from their obsession. That’s why the alcoholic is never “cured,” because the reprieve is temporary. The obsession will return (sooner or later) without continued participation in the program.
Based on the above, I would consider alcoholism “cured” if both of the following occur:
the alcoholic is able to use alcohol in moderation and control their drinking; and
For those who consider alcoholism/addiction a disease, how do you explain alcoholics/addicts who once they have changed their lifestyle (ie gotten a better house/job/family) are able to go from a constant drinker/user so someone who drinks/uses very occasionally on a recreational basis. I know someone who has done just that.
He got a much better job and house and has since pretty much stopped obsessing about drinking and doing drugs. He says he doesn’t even feel the need anymore. This is a 40 year old who has been in and out of rehab and tried AA/NA but kept falling off the wagon.
I actually know a lot of people who have managed to go from being what many would consider an alcoholic to a social drinker once they grew up and got a family/job whatever.
I don’t think you want to get into which disease is “worse,” because I can guarantee addiction is just as ugly/life threatening as any other disease out there. Don’t get me wrong, I empathize and would never belittle your condition and the fact that you have to take medications that have bad side effects. I’m sorry you have to go through that, and I’m sure it’s severe, but don’t make the assumption that because programs like AA help some people that it’s any kind of cure all or great solution.
Daily meetings and fellowship can probably offer you as much help for your disease as it does for most addicts. That’s to say, support and mental help, but no real “treatment” for the physical disease that ails you.
I hesitate to come out with it, but fuck it, yes, I have battled drug addiction (along with severe depression and bipolar, woo fun fun) my entire adult life, and there have been many many times that I’ve felt like I’d be better off with any other “disease” than the ones I have. It isn’t an overstatement to say that there have been several times when my life was in serious danger, and I know that this thing is life-threatening and will kill me if I don’t take care of myself and do what I’m supposed to do.
And IMO, a care regimen that includes taking a drug that has been proven to help addicts stop abusing their drug-of-choice is far more effective, and ideal, than the “god” prescription of AA and other 12 step programs. I’m an atheist, and I can try all I want to twist that program around to somehow fit that I don’t believe in that “higher power,” but it’s never going to work for me. And, as the research shows, it doesn’t really work for people who believe in god either.
Some of the current drugs that treat drug and alcohol addiction, like methadone and suboxone for opiate addiction, are controversial, but they have been infinitely more effective and successful than 12-step programs. They are what is known as “harm reduction” programs, which is exactly what it sounds like.
As more research and development is put into drugs to treat drug and alcohol addiction, ideally, the negative side effects will be fewer and fewer while the efficacy of treatment increases. Again, I think that’s far more promising than more wasted time and energy, not to mention the questionable morality of prescribing “god” as a treatment.
I have never made the assumption that AA is a “cure all”.
AA has helped millions.
Not a cure.
Yes, a “great solution”. But not a cure. You are correct there.
Nor is methadone a cure.
There are a hell of a lot more potential lethal side effects from methadone than a group meeting.
LOL
Thanks.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all in favor for properly prescribed medications.
Hell, I can and did write narcotic prescriptions during my tenure as an RNP.
I used to prescribe methadone when I worked in a chronic pain clinic.
Writing an RX for M was always a moment of trepidation.
Addicts are fantastic liars. Prescribing a controlled substance to a fantastic liar takes balls of steel.
I was forced into retirement … health reasons.
I should have attended some meetings.
Damn! Missed opportunity.:smack:
I tend to agree if the person really is an alcoholic.
There are some people that drank heavily and stop. Then years later they take a drink now and then and don’t fall into heavy drinking. But, they weren’t really alcoholic to begin with. Someone’s lifestyle can cause them to drink heavily. For example soldiers in Viet Nam. Alcohol was an escape and recreation. After getting back home a lot of Vets had no problem stopping or cutting way back. Some vets were alcoholic and couldn’t stop without help.
This is disturbing in a way. What if someone has a situational drinking problem, goes to the most common and advertised program out there(AA), is told that are addicted to alcohol forever and dare not take even one drink lest they fall off the wagon…and it turns out that maybe, with professional help, they could have controlled it all that time. Am I wrong in thinking that AA takes all who show up to the meetings, without question? I don’t know which is worse in a case like this: self diagnosis, or a group diagnosis by others predisposed by their own history to mark someone as a life-long alcoholic?
A person who self-diagnoses as an alcoholic is accepted as an alcoholic by a group of people predisposed to not question the self diagnosis because of their own history, and is told that she/he will be an alcoholic forever, correct?
Correct. They are told that they will be an alcoholic forever. Also, they are asked to follow the 12 steps and accept a higher power. They are told that being an alcoholic isn’t their fault and there’s nothing they can do to change it. They are forever labeled as an alcoholic and they are told never to drink again. In their eyes, taking one sip of alcohol indicates a relapse. Alcohol is considered the devil.
But that’s not what AA says to new people–it’s a common meme, and it’s been dispelled here over and over, but for some reason people cling to this idea. In fact–and someone correct me if I’m wrong–AA literature actually suggests that people try controlled drinking before deciding if AA is right for them. People in AA and NA will tell you: “Only you yourself can determine if you’re an addict.” They don’t want people to join unless they really are sure they need it and want it. What would be the point in doing it otherwise?
But that is exactly what I’m pointing out here-they encourage self diagnosis of a disease, and they unquestioningly accept that self-diagnosis. Do you not see the problem with this?
edited to add: Does AA encourage the newcomer to seek professional help to try to moderate the drinking?
How do you think a physician diagnoses alcohol abuse?
I’ll tell you. It’s not too dissimilar from the AA questions.
The undiagnosed are more worrisome to me than any (rare) wrongly self diagnosed.
The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. No diagnosis necessary. There is no known worrisome side effect (that I know of) if any non-alkie mistakingly stops drinking !
Yes. I doctor isn’t going to be able to take your blood sample and then tell you that you’re alcoholic. S/he will just ask you those same basic questions. The people I know that ended up in NA or AA had no difficulty knowing that they had a problem. They’d already been to doctors, prescribed medication, or gone to fancy rehabs. Basically, they were miserable, and as one friend put it, “I didn’t have problems every time I drank, but more and more I could see that the majority of my real problems stemmed from drinking.” In different ways they ended up in AA or NA, and from everything I could observe, it turned them around.
I didn’t mean to suggest that methadone is a cure, or that it doesn’t have serious side effects. It is a very controversial issu, and methadone maintainence is not something I’d ever suggest someone enter into lightly. It has a great success rate when administered properly and monitored by professionals, but like I said before, it’s a risk management type of treatment, not a cure.
Well, yeah, again, that’s why methadone treatment is done at clinics where patients start out by going in every day for their dose, not given medication to take home until they have done certain things and pass their drug tests, etc.
The other drugs I was talking about for alcoholism aren’t controlled substances, as far as I know. My point was that I like the direction addiction treatment is headed, and hopefully, with more research and development, the drugs will only get better and better.
Nothing like a little empirical research. I carried out that research for about 12 years before I decided that I was an alcoholic.
I’ve told quite a few people to go out and try controlled drinking. It is pretty easy, if you are an alkie, to prove to yourself that you are an alkie. As far as it goes, the only person that can really know they are an alkie is the alkie*.
On a side note, I’ve never in 7 years heard anyone in A.A. diagnose anyone but themselves as an alcoholic. Every time someone asks (and it happens fairly often) the response is ‘try controlled drinking’ and ‘read this’ followed by ‘If you want to talk…’.
Being alcoholic isn’t just about drinking too much, it is about the feelings you get when you can’t drink. The panic and fear I went through when I couldn’t get a drink was really insane. The best way I have found to describe it is like not being able to breathe. When I couldn’t have a drink and I needed one it felt like I was under water way too deep and needed a breath. That full on ‘Holy Shit, I need it NOW or I am gonna die’ feeling. That feeling, and all the bad shit you will do to eliminate the feeling, are what being an alkie is about, at least for me.
A.A. does work with professionals. Linky. There are committees on the medical aspects. Also, A.A. does recommend treatment for associated issues, like depression.
Slee
*From the outside it is pretty easy to see if someone has a drinking problem. However, the question then becomes are they just abusing alcohol or full on alcoholic. Linkyon the difference. IMHO, the difference is slight but important.