That depends on the defintion of “it”.
Anyone who says anything supportive about attempts to change sexuality supports the goals, and thus the movement, of reparative therapy. And that is sheer hatred of gay people. Unabashed, undeniable.
Okay, that’s it. Being compared to a pedophile is one thing, but now you’re comparing me to a Republican? That’s just nasty.
Some gays are Christians. Some gays are not. And some gays, like me, vacillate wildly between trying to fit myself into the Christian world (in my case, a very pro-gay Episcopalian church), and despising religion as an oppressive force that pretty much just wants me dead.
But gay Republicans? That’s a like a banker voting Communist.
vanilla, I’m not saying that you hate gay people. I just think you give too much credence to one person’s (okay, two people’s) testimony. Multitudes of people on this message board are telling you their own stories, in which nothing worked to change their orientation. Not therapy, not religion, not Jesus. But you choose instead to believe one person’s story instead.
I don’t think you hate gay people. I just think you don’t really quite understand what orientation is, and what lengths some people will go to to deny their own orientation. Remember that there have been millions of gay men and lesbians who have married someone of the opposite sex, had children with them, and all along were actually gay. There are people who have been married to someone of the opposite sex for DECADES, because that was what you did at the time, and now they’re unwilling to churn up their own lives and the lives of their spouses and children to “be gay”. It’s sad to those of us who came of age in a time when it was at least marginally acceptable to forego the traditions and to actually be an open homosexual.
Note, however, that the fact that these people have been involved in fruitful marriages for 30, 40, 50, or more years does NOT make them straight.
jayjay: thank you.
Maybe it worked in that ONE case.
Maybe not.
But if he is suppressing his gayness for the church, then he sure seems happy about it.
Yes, I understand what you mean by orientation and acts.
I’ve even once told someone that their efforts to “stop being gay” weren’t going to work.
Just out of curiosity, am I included in that “anyone”? I’d like to know if declaring support for the rights of individuals to control their own lives counts as “sheer hatred”.
I think the problem here is one of perception. To us, lauding someone’s attempts to “control their own lives” by changing their orientation is akin to lauding the attempts of someone to “control their own life” by learning to fly through the flapping of arms. Except among those emotionally committed to the lie of reparative therapy, it is simply an impossible task. I’m white. I can take pills which would spur the production of more melanin, but I’ll never be black. I’m gay. I can learn how to grit my teeth and have sex with a woman. But I’ll never be straight.
I don’t have a dog in this race, but I always got the impression that you really do hate gays.
I don’t think you hate gays either, vanilla, but sometimes I think you too readily believe what someone says if it comes from your church. Not everyone has a clean agenda, even if they claim to be speaking for God.
This guy might not be a solid end on the Kinsey scale (I always forget if it’s 6 that’s totally gay, or 1), or he may not have been “gay” in the first place (maybe he was just a confused, experimenting teenager who immediately thought that gay acts=being gay.) Or maybe he is gay, and is lying through his teeth.
What you’re supporting is a person doing extreme psychological violence to themself, and that is totally despicable. It’s akin to buying someone who likes to cut on themselves a pack of razors and saying “you go!”
I am shocked at this.
I don’t want to tax the server but you may recall my many posts where I support gay marriage.
Are you even being serious?
You must never have read any of my posts on this subject. :eek:
No, anecdotal evidence does not equal proof. I said as much, even in the bit that you quoted.
And I’m sorry, but “proof” is not what I’m looking for here. That was what my rambling train analogy was about. I can’t prove that getting hit by a train is going to kill you, but I’m still going to tell you to get out of the way. There are people who claim that they have chose to be gay, or that they have stopped being gay. There are far more people who claim that this is impossible, or at least that it can’t be done without causing serious harm. No, that’s not scientific proof, but it’s evidence enough that our society needs to be spending less time asking why or how it happens and more time learning how to deal with it constructively.
The anecdotes are going both ways, but somehow they always manage to come back to gay people with value judgements attached.
No, it isn’t. The action you describe is clearly self-destructive, whereas that action the blogger describes is only probably self-destructive, and the only one who can determine how self-destructive it might be (if at all) is the person attempting it. All-in-all, it’s rather condescending of you to assume the blogger doesn’t know what’s good for him.
And to accuse me of sheer hatred or collusion with those who operate on sheer hatred… that’s just funny.
Daffy, almost.
[sub]…you’re dethpicable…![/sub]
Just for the record, I also got that impression. I’ve only seen your posts in this thread, your messages are terse, and you used a lot of very loaded words and phrases.
Such as saying that Jesus “healed” a man of his homosexuality. Looking back, I can see that you could have been quoting him instead of saying this yourself, but it wasn’t clear.
Or that “He truly was gay. Now he is not.” This implies a belief that either having gay sex is the same thing as being gay.
Or that “It [homosexuality] can’t be a good thing then.”
I’m not saying that your posts need to be as long-winded and rambling as mine, but if what you say is true, then you’re definitely not getting your point across.
I’d like to state for the record that I do not think that vanilla hates gay people. I was merely attempting to reproduce her posting style – terseness and absurd conclusions.
I think Vanilla isn’t a bigot – she’s just very gullible. She’s swallow pretty much anything said to her by someone with a clerical collar. This is not a rare trait in America.
He claimed he was no longer gay, ot just not having sex with other men
he said healed, meaning gayness is something God can change(heal as it were)
I should use quotes more.
I Know I’m not a bigot.
o church I have attended has had the pastor wearing a collar, usually just a suit or shirt and pants.
No, I certainly have disagreed with many a church person.
The fact that I’m not a Republican makes me disagree with every christian I’ve known in real life.
There are Christians who are Democrats, too.
goear: Yes! But in most fundie churches, there are NOT.
This is mainly foursquare, assemblies and non denominational ones.
I’d like to meet a Christian Democrat!
The ones I know think Democrats are evil.