Well, quite a few anectdotes suggest that losing weight is impossible, and that you are either “biologically determined” to be fat or skinny. Science and reason, unfortunately shows us that it is not. Anectdotes, however many there are, are not evidence. Like it is said, the plural of anecdote is not proof. It may be found to be impossible to change, I cannot argue there, but there is, to date, no solid evidence, and your claims otherwise are empty.
You know what, asswipe, since you’re the one telling ME that the core, underlying, determinative and all-encompassing facet of my humanity is a fucking CHOICE, why don’t you PROVE that people can change their sexuality?
No, and I didn’t take them as such either. My first comment was merely matter of fact. But in the second post, I made sure that I made MANY disclaimers as to that I was not questioning the rights of gays, or the validity of their choices or feelings.
I Was keeping it very plain and matter of fact so as NOT to stir up some whom I’ve seen take offense and think questions mean disagreement with their orientation. Looks as if I shouldn’t have tried to be so serious and businesslike, obviously it doesn’t always come across properly in type.
As I said in the previous post (and made several disclaimers on), I am NOT saying that a person’s being gay is in any way bad. Nor am I saying in any way that they SHOULD change. But it seems as if a lot of poison is being spewed toward those who want to try. Similar to the same sort of refusal to accept that homosexuals frequently face, and rail against.
My questions were about the “cause” (for lack of a more appropriate and palatable term), of homosexuality.
It seems to be a commonly accepted “fact” that homosexuality is genetic, biological and that everyone “knows” that.
My questions were asked in the same way anyone else would ask of any “fact” that was simply “accepted” as fact because “well everyone knows that”. It’s not that it’s about homosexuality it’s that, as is the case in many other debates, there is no documented, scientific proof, that homosexuality IS caused by genetics, or is biological.
That the cause of homosexuality may NOT be genetic, or biological, seems to make people think that those asking, or suggesting such are saying that, THAT then means that it’s not 'okay" for people to be homosexuals. When they are not saying that.
Other origins for homosexuality, are just as valid. Again, I think that people, because this IS such a personal subject, tend to think that suggesting other origins for homosexuality, are saying otherwise.
But there IS a possibility that homosexuality has other origins, or “causes” than that of genetics and biology. That’s not an evil anti-gay possibility.
And for the record, I can’t STAND fundies (I would say hate, but that wouldn’t be very christian :D), they make worse than a mockery out of God. There is a HUGE difference between God, and religion, and especially between God and religious fanaticism. Those freaks are doing more to chase people away from any kind of faith, than all the atheists and agnostics added together could possibly ever do.
No, no, not at all. I’ve seen you enough to know that you didn’t mean anything mean by it.
See, this is the dang problem with trying to discuss this. It seems that a person almost CAN’T state what they mean without someone having to think it’s a slam.
But you’re right, in trying to explain exactly what I meant, it sounded as if I was trying to define the terms period.
Oh well
Hey, dumbass- point out where I said it was a choice.
Check here for extensive psychological commentary on whether reparative therapies are useful. (Summary: no.) It’s a PDF file; check page 6 of the document.
Some quotes:
If it can be changed, then it is a choice. If it can be changed, anyone can change it if they try hard enough, and those of us who have tried and failed are just failed, pathetic human beings.
Well, Epimetheus, this discussion has been had before and usually ends in tears before long.
Can gay people change their sexual orientation? It depends on what one means by “change,” I suppose. Exodus International says that they can change gays into good fundie heteros, but then they weasel with this paragraph from their FAQ.
In other words, their so-called change is really just supression of one’s sex drive. Exodus’s “release from homosexuality” is no such thing–pretending that you don’t find Brad Pitt hot is not being heterosexual, it’s being a repressed homosexual doing his best to be someone he isn’t.
Certainly the American Psychiatric Association rejects the idea of conversion.
Oh, and I share Spectrum’s opinions, I’m just not venting them.
A common response from gays is this: “Of course I was born this way. Do you think I would choose to be gay?!
Very well.
But why do gays criticize other gays who seek to change? Shouldn’t they be applauding their efforts? Shouldn’t they support experimental techniques for changing sexual orientation? Hmm…
I once asked the following question to the gays on this board: “If there were a magic pill you could take that would instantly transform you into a heterosexual, would you take it?”
If I recall correctly, the overwhelming response was “No.” I my opinion, this means the statement “Do you think I would choose being gay?!” is a lie.
Please note that I never said that. When I say that it’s possible to change, I’m speaking theoretically, not practically. And even then I’m just throwing around a hypothesis, not stating fact.
Mostly the latter, but once again I think we’re into fuzzy territory. Was there a particular moment when you came out to yourself, or was it a gradual process?
Thinking about it, though, my statement about not going back is a pretty meaningless bit of circular logic. The point at which you realize you’re gay and can’t go back is the point at which you can’t go back. Deep, eh?
No, just because something can be changed, doesn’t mean it is a choice you make. If you want to believe that go right ahead, but you will be wrong. There are many things that happen to a person in life that can be changed, but aren’t necessarily choices a person made.
I hold it that a persons orientation is built upon circumstance and developmental cues, both sociological and biological. There is nothing in there where a concious choice is likely, it is just something that happens.
Just because somebody disagrees with you makes them some fundie trash bent on “cleasning” your lifestyle, but I am not going to be PC and let you spout falsehoods, just to ease your little ego.
A summary is that the current position of all major psychological and psychiatric organizations is that sexual orientation is immutable and established at a very early stage. It is not certain whether sexual orientation is rooted in genetics, fetal development, or very early childhood; but for all practical purposes, it is congenital in nature.
(Let me just say, however, considering that people of varied sexual orientations emerge from all types of families under all kinds of conditions, the idea that it stems from psychological development seems untenable to me.)
A person’s understanding of their sexual orientation can evolve over time, of course; but this is in the nature of understanding one’s preexisting state better, not of consciously altering it.
Err, this should say “Just because somebody disagrees with you doesn’t make them some fundie trash…”
If you had asked me when I was 12, for example, if I wanted to be straight, gay, or bi, I probably would have said straight. It is therefore fortunate that that choice is not offered.
Now that I am an adult, I would not choose to change my existing sexual orientation, if it were possible to do so.
Not to hijack, but there are at least a few gay guys on the boards here that wouldn’t change the fact that they’re gay. Do you really think you would if you could?
No, it’s because you haven’t thought it through.
First, sexuality kicks in when you’re a teen, at the time of life when you want most desperately to fit in, to be “normal.” Do you think that a teenager hitting puberty would deliberately choose a sexual orientation that guarantees pariahdom from one’s peers? Moreover, if gay people “chose” to be gay, then conversely, hetero people should have chosen, too, and thus himosexuality would still be a viable choice for them. How about, Crafter_Man, want to try some hot man lovin’? 
The idea that being gay is a choice is absurd.
If a gay person has been so warped by Christian hate that he wishes to change, good luck. It’ been demonstrated repeatedly that change is impossible, so he’s dooming himself to failure, but still, if he could change, then more power to him to find peace if he can.
But I would not change because I am happy being me. I’m an adult, not a teen, and I have no need for the approval of others, let alone a pack of fundy dimwits, to validate my worthiness as a human being.
Crafter_Man, how about a foot massage? A little baby oil, firm pressure on your instep?
I think you’re largely misinterpreting what people are saying and then taking offense when there is really no reason to. No one is saying that you had no struggle. No one is saying that your struggle was easy. No one is calling you a failure. And no one is suggesting that you try to change.
What we are saying is that we should challenge our assumptions, look at the situation from a different angle, and throw around a few alternative hypotheses. If the idea of immutable orientation is fact, then it will stand up as being so. And there’s no need to walk away with a bloody nose in the process.
However, Canvas Shoes brings up an interesting point. “The gay handbook says it, I believe it, and that settles it” seems to be the mantra around here. Rather than treating the idea of immutable orientation as an interesting and probable hypothesis, it’s being treated as dogma. Dissenting views are being shut down as heretical. Or at least it seems to be leaning that way. Let’s please do a reality check before we go down that path, oomkay? 
Yes, going to work, bettering yourself, growing up, making friends, living your life, falling in love and starting a family is such a detestible “unbreakable pattern of behavior” so worthy of swearing off of!
:wally
Esprix
It seems perfectly reasonable to me. One of the current working theories is that it’s not the big things in a person’s life that cause fabuoulsity (“Oh, Matt, where did we fail you? I’m so sorry I let you play with dolls! It’s all my fault!”), but little, subtle things. Even, for twins, possibly placement in the womb may have played a role.
This makes a lot more sense to me than genetics.
But of course, the jury’s still out. None of of knows for sure.
I disagree. If it DID turn out to be of other causes than genetic. Where is it written that a psychological, or other trait then follows that which you said above?
And where iis it written that a trait wrought of psychological, or environmental causes isn’t JUST as valid a trait to NOT change?
It sounds as if you, based on your utterly painful and agonizing sounding experience with trying to change your orientation, have assigned “good and/or bad” values to the word “change”.
Not everyone is doing that. Nor is everyone thinking that NOT changing, or not wanting to change, = pathetic, failed ANYthing.