One more time: Are transsexuals really female or really still male?

[brickbacon]

@Polycarp

Okay, you’re in Great Debates. You’ve stated (albeit offensively, the first time) a premise: basic biological gender is established by the chromosomes, and is unchangeable. At least five Dopers of high reputation have stated their personal experiences as being otherwise.

I know this wasn’t posed to me, but I feel like I can aswer some of these questions. Although he was offensive to many people, I think he has a point. First, personal experiences means nothing with regard to their true gender indentity. Just cause they feel like women doesn’t mean they really are.

@Polycarp

Defend your premise, with cites. Explain logically why it has to be true.

Nobody’s arguing that XY codes for maleness and XX for femaleness, in terms of sex – except for the odd cases when they don’t, or do incompletely. But how does that result in “Joe was born a boy baby, grew into a man, and cannot change that, even if he feels like he is a woman inside”?

There’s nothing wrong with holding a contrarian view (though expressing it in way calculated to insult people is definitely wrong). But if you hold one, you need to make your case: What about maleness/femaleness is so inherent in genetics that an interior psychological sense to the contrary has no impact on it?

Contrarian view? I don’t know where you live but Clothahump’s view certainly isn’t contrarian. In the US, many (if not most) people believe homosexuality is wrong, Do you really think they except the arguments for being transgender? I think not. That doesn’t make them morally or objectively right, but it does make Clothahump’s view the dominant one. It’s also worth noting that it doesn’t make all of them stupid, bigots, or blidly religious. He doesn’t need to make the case for why male/femaleness is inheirent in genetics, you need to prove why it is not; and you need to do it without comparing it to things like Klinefelter’s syndrome (which are not analogous).

@Polycarp

We’re talking about human beings here, not non-interchangeable parts for a Ford or Toyota – they are composed of body and something else: mind, soul, spirit, whatever name you care to tack on it. How does the body trump the spirit in this, but not in other things (such as sexual orientation)?

You’ve made an assertion, now defend it: Put up or shut up.

As I explained before, the burden is on you. Please stop comparing transgender persons to homosexuals. It is not the same thing. I believe there is an objective truth that one can either accept or reject. Transgender persons choose to reject it. In the absence of a genetic disorder, you are born a man or a woman and you will stay that way until you die. You can also be born hetero or homosexual. I know plenty of gay people who dated the opposite sex until they realized they were gay. That doesn’t mean they suddenly became gay, they were always gay, they just choose to reject reality. They are well within their rights to do so. But, comparing that to someone who feels they should have been born as a another sex is faulty.

I would love for someone to explain to me how being transgender is different from someone who has Apotemnophilia. This doesn’t really explain the condition fully, so I will elaborate. Many people who have this disorder are nuts, many others sincerely feel as though they should not have been born with certain body parts. So I have a few questions for anyone that would like to answer them.

*How is someone who feels they should have been born without a penis different from someone who feels they shouldn’t have been born with a leg?

Why is it that the first person can undergo surgical procedures to aline their mental image of themselves with their physical, while the second person can’t?

Why is one person “normal” while the other is crazy (if you feel they are crazy)?

When does someone who is born a man (but, feels like they should be a woman) become a woman?
Is it when they come to terms with this fact?
After they start dressing and acting like a woman?
After the surgery?

What if they are uncertain of what they should have been born as, do they temporarily transcend gender indentity?*

In short, my point is that I don’t think you can change your gender through surgery. I don’t say all of that to say someone shouldn’t have the right to do what ever they want to make themselves happy (or that it is morally wrong). Just that it is very frustrating when people try to say the objective standard for gender indentity we’ve used forever is wrong because a few people feel their genes are faulty. Sorry, but I disagree.

[KellyM]

@brickbacon

I don’t think you can change your gender through surgery.

I agree with you on this point. You can’t change gender through surgery. You can, however, change sex through surgery. There’s a difference.

[brickbacon]

@KellyM

I agree with you on this point. You can’t change gender through surgery. You can, however, change sex through surgery. There’s a difference.

Can you please elaborate on that? I don’t want to get into an argument over semantics, I want to know whether I am missing the point you are trying to make. Are you saying you can surgically transform a man into a woman (or vice-versa)?

[KellyM]

@brickbacon

Can you please elaborate on that? I don’t want to get into an argument over semantics, I want to know whether I am missing the point you are trying to make. Are you saying you can surgically transform a man into a woman (or vice-versa)?

It depends on what you define “man” and “woman” as. If you insist on using chromosomal sex, no; but a few moments reflection will reveal that this is not what “man” and “woman” mean in the common usage. It is, however, possible to surgically alter the body of a person with a male phenotype to appear very similar to that of the female phenotype, and to a lesser degree the other way around; it is this process we refer to as “changing sex”. It is currently not possible to alter the psychological gender of a person by any means currently known to medical science.

Please read my post at the end of page 1 of this thread; it may help explain the difference between sex and gender.

[brickbacon]

@KellyM

It depends on what you define “man” and “woman” as. If you insist on using chromosomal sex, no; but a few moments reflection will reveal that this is not what “man” and “woman” mean in the common usage. It is, however, possible to surgically alter the body of a person with a male phenotype to appear very similar to that of the female phenotype, and to a lesser degree the other way around; it is this process we refer to as “changing sex”. It is currently not possible to alter the psychological gender of a person by any means currently known to medical science.

Please read my post at the end of page 1 of this thread; it may help explain the difference between sex and gender.

I have taken a few moments to reflect and I still think, even in common usage, most people want to know you chromosomal sex rather than what you appear to be. I think most people would be feel they had been lied to if you met a MTF transsexual who claimed to be a woman (which you later found to be false). Most heterosexual men I know would never date a MTF transsexual because “she” is still a man. If people ask a transsexual what sex they are, they usally want to know what they were born as.

I read your post (on page 1), and your points are noted. But I notice you don’t provide any cites or data to back up your assertion that there is something such a psychological gender, and that it can conflict with your biological one. If there is a psychological gender, is there a psychological race, etc. I have never seen any respected scientists posit anything like what you describe. I am open to reading any cites you have.

[Lamia]

@Clothahump

If the genes ring up the old XY, that’s male and there is nothing that we can do about it, at least not at this point in time.

How do you know if “the genes ring up the old XY”? It’s certainly possible to test for such things, but I don’t believe I’ve ever had such a test performed on me. I have a lot of blood tests so it’s possible someone has checked to see if I’m a normal XX female, but if so it’s never been mentioned to me. If anyone I know has had such a test I’ve never heard about it and never seen the results.

So, aside from the fact that your “XY = male, XX = female” theory completely ignores people who do not have either chromosome pattern (see Turner’s syndome, Klinefelter’s syndrome), it tells me nothing that could be of use in everyday life. I have no way of knowing for sure whether people I meet are XX or XY.

[Eve]

@brickbacon

I have taken a few moments to reflect and I still think, even in common usage, most people want to know you chromosomal sex rather than what you appear to be. I think most people would be feel they had been lied to if you met a MTF transsexual who claimed to be a woman (which you later found to be false). Most heterosexual men I know would never date a MTF transsexual because “she” is still a man. If people ask a transsexual what sex they are, they usally want to know what they were born as.

Stated in a polite and reasonable way, and, sadly, I think it is still true, even in New York. Which is why I stopped dating some ten years ago, and actively avoid any situation that might result in accidental romance. But you younger gals (or you lucky lesbians) may have better luck, as people’s perceptions slowly change.

Me, I know I’m a woman; I’ve always known I’m a woman. I have been thoroughly examined by doctors (and a number of gentlemen) who found nothing unwomanly about me. I live as a woman, my friends and coworkers think of me as a woman, and if anyone thinks otherewise, most of them are polite and well-raised enough to keep their yaps shut.

[KellyM]

@brickbacon

I have taken a few moments to reflect and I still think, even in common usage, most people want to know you chromosomal sex rather than what you appear to be.

I think most people want to know what hangs (or not) between your legs, to be honest. A substantial portion of the population doesn’t even know what chromosomes are.

[KellyM]

@brickbacon

But I notice you don’t provide any cites or data to back up your assertion that there is something such a psychological gender, and that it can conflict with your biological one. If there is a psychological gender, is there a psychological race, etc. I have never seen any respected scientists posit anything like what you describe. I am open to reading any cites you have.

Do your own research on this one. We have these threads about once every two months and I’m getting tired of pulling out the cite list. They’re all over the place on this message board, and finding them should not be difficult.

[jayjay]

@KellyM

Do your own research on this one. We have these threads about once every two months and I’m getting tired of pulling out the cite list. They’re all over the place on this message board, and finding them should not be difficult.

What was it our own Andygirl said once? “I don’t have time to be your learning experience” or something like that.

As a gay man, I have to say it does get old being on-call 24/7 to educate people about yourself and others like you.

[DocCathode]

KellyM Sure, we’ve provided the cites in plenty of other threads. But, we made an assertion. It’s our job to back it up.
Stria Terminalis- PDF

HTML

I would have had the cite sooner, but neither my brain nor my computer are working well lately.

[DocCathode]

Eve

"Well she’s all you’d ever want
She’s the kind they’d like to flaunt and take to dinner
Well she always knows her place
She’s got style, she’s got grace, she’s a winner.

She’s a Lady. Whoa whoa whoa, she’s a Lady"

[brickbacon]

@Eve

Stated in a polite and reasonable way, and, sadly, I think it is still true, even in New York. Which is why I stopped dating some ten years ago, and actively avoid any situation that might result in accidental romance. But you younger gals (or you lucky lesbians) may have better luck, as people’s perceptions slowly change.

Me, I know I’m a woman; I’ve always known I’m a woman. I have been thoroughly examined by doctors (and a number of gentlemen) who found nothing unwomanly about me. I live as a woman, my friends and coworkers think of me as a woman, and if anyone thinks otherewise, most of them are polite and well-raised enough to keep their yaps shut.

I’m sorry to hear about the difficulties you’ve had with regard to that, but I hope you realize that I (unlike many people who may share my views on this matter) don’t view you in a negative light. Hopefully, you will continue to find yourself surrounded by people who are supportive and accepting.

@KellyM

I think most people want to know what hangs (or not) between your legs, to be honest. A substantial portion of the population doesn’t even know what chromosomes are.

You’re right, most people don’t know anything about genetics. However, I still feel most people typically would want to know what you were born as. I think the example I gave before sums it up pretty well. What percentage of heterosexual males would date a MTF transsexual? Despite the fact that they look, feel, smell, and act like a woman. Despite the fact that the differences are imperceptible. The vast majority would find the idea offensive.

@KellyM

Do your own research on this one. We have these threads about once every two months and I’m getting tired of pulling out the cite list. They’re all over the place on this message board, and finding them should not be difficult.

Fair enough. I have not been here long, so I have not engaged in any similar debates. However, I do question why you choose to involve yourself in the debate if you are not willing to provide cites to back up your assertions.

[KellyM]

@brickbacon

However, I do question why you choose to involve yourself in the debate if you are not willing to provide cites to back up your assertions.

Partially because I’ve provided those cites before, as have others, and partially because I’m posting from work and don’t have easy access to the references I would have at home, and partially because it’s been an exhausting week and I’m bloody well tired.

So there.

[KellyM]

@brickbacon

What percentage of heterosexual males would date a MTF transsexual? Despite the fact that they look, feel, smell, and act like a woman. Despite the fact that the differences are imperceptible. The vast majority would find the idea offensive.

And why would that be, do you suppose?

I guarantee you that it’s not because they’re born that way.

[Polycarp]

@KellyM

And why would that be, do you suppose?

I guarantee you that it’s not because they’re born that way.

No, you’ve got to be Carefully Taught.

[Clothahump]

@KellyM

@Clothahump

He was born a man. He will die a man. If the genes ring up the old XY, that’s male and there is nothing that we can do about it, at least not at this point in time. The fact that he has had surgery, dresses like a woman, acts like a woman and calls himself a woman does not make him a woman.

Welcome to Great Debates. Now, justify this position, especially considering the situation of so-called “AIS females”: women who, due to an enzyme deficiency, have XY chromosomes but appear fully female externally (internally, they have no uterus, and vestigial streak testes usually imbedded in the abdominal wall instead of ovaries). Most people consider AIS females to be female; your position declares them to be male.

That is because biologically they are male. That has been my point all along. I am talking about the basic blueprint of genetics in humans; I am not talking about any social perceptions one way or the other.

AIS females, Klinefelter Syndrome, Turner Syndrome, etc. are all deviations from the norm and recognized as such. The norm is XX female, XY male:

2. MULTICELLULAR ORGANISM
   –1. DIPLOID CELLSBSOMATIC (VEGETATIVE, NON-REPRODUCTIVE) CELLS
   ----1. CONTAIN DOUBLE SET OF GENETIC MATERIAL
   ----2. HOMOLOGOUS PAIRS OF CHROMOSOMES
   ----3. 23 PAIRS OF HOMOLOGOUS CHROMOSOMES IN HUMANS
   ------1. 22 PAIRS CALLED AUTOSOMESBNON SEX DETERMINING CHROMOSOMES
   ------2. 1 PAIR = GENDER (SEX) DETERMINING PAIR

--------1. XX = FEMALE
--------2. XY = MALE

Cite

[Lamia]

@Clothahump

AIS females, Klinefelter Syndrome, Turner Syndrome, etc. are all deviations from the norm and recognized as such. The norm is XX female, XY male

Why don’t you consider transsexuals to be simply more “deviations from the norm”?

[Lord_Ashtar]

@Eve

Me, I know I’m a woman; I’ve always known I’m a woman. I have been thoroughly examined by doctors (and a number of gentlemen) who found nothing unwomanly about me. I live as a woman, my friends and coworkers think of me as a woman, and if anyone thinks otherewise, most of them are polite and well-raised enough to keep their yaps shut.

I’m astonished at how much this sounds to me like a theist trying to explain a religious experience to an atheist.

[Lord_Ashtar]

@KellyM

@brickbacon

Originally Posted by brickbacon
What percentage of heterosexual males would date a MTF transsexual? Despite the fact that they look, feel, smell, and act like a woman. Despite the fact that the differences are imperceptible. The vast majority would find the idea offensive.

And why would that be, do you suppose?

I guarantee you that it’s not because they’re born that way.

The vast majority of people who dress as women are naturally born “real” women, therefore it’s safe to assume that when you engage one, that’s what you’re getting. That’s what they want. If you were born with male pieces, you’re not what they want. It has nothing to do with being raised to hate transsexuals, it’s just the way it is.