I admit, I haven’t read very many of the previous posts, because a scroll revealed few citations and a random sampling of readings revealed a lot of opinion and philosophy.
What science is beginning to reveal is that there can in fact be significant disjunction between gender identity rooted in the brain and gender expression in sex organs and overall body structure. This is no surprise to transexuals, but it seems very counter-intuitive to many (most?) “normal” folks.
The question of whether M->F transexuals are “really” female or “really” male is a malformed question.
This page, from the University of Plymouth Dept. of Psychology, may be a good place to begin for those interested in looking into this admittedly nascient science.
An important difference is that when Eve is dead we can section her brain and mount it on slides. Post mortem analysis will prove that we are indeed dealing with a female mind.
Here is a very brief (2p) PDF file which I think provides a good summary.
From the conclusion:
In short, trying to change a transsexual’s mind about his/her gender identity doesn’t work. Changing the body to suit the mind, and being socially supportive of this process, works to resolve the misery experience by those whose bodies do not match their psychic identity.
To simplify the argument, let’s assume that the transsexual in your example is seeking full SRS–it’s a lot more complicated that just transsexual = SRS, but let’s just go with that for the sake of argument.
For the transsexual, it isn’t about what she wants to get rid of, it’s about what she lacks. She wants to have the body chemistry and body parts of a woman. Getting rid of the male body parts and undergoing hormone therapy is a means to that end, not the end itself.
The first person in your example seeks to be made whole. The second is doing the opposite.
The first person in your example is going to undergo a thorough screening process to determine whether she is a true transsexual or not. If she is not, she will not be getting the hormone therapy and surgery, and will be treated in another manner. On this I agree with your point in a limited manner. SRS is not appropriate for people merely because they “feel” they were born with the wrong body parts. Nobody is ever given sexual reassignment treatments solely on that basis anyway.
Those who make it through the screening process are those who have been determined to be true transsexuals. For us, there is no other effective treatment. Without treatment, gender dysphoria can, and often does have deadly consequences.
The scond person is given the same treatment as the transsexual is at first–counseling to determine how best to treat the condition. Giving a person surgery merely because they ask for it is foolish no matter what the disorder.
“Crazy” is meaningless in this context. Both have disorders, and thus are not normal. The one best treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment (which does not always include SRS). People with the other disorder are treated based on the best research and prevailing medical practice for that disorder. As it becomes better understood, the treatment will likely change. This is true of transsexualism, also.
Most would say that she was always female in the first place. There’s no “becoming” involved. Some come to this realization later on (as KellyM has said she did) others knew from early childhood (as Eve has said she did) while I realized it in early childhood, but suprressed it as much as I could until much later on.
Understanding often first occurs long after an event takes place. Though I didn’t truly understand my condition and begin treatment until I was 28, that understanding helped me see the pattern of behaviors going all the way back to when I was first able to walk and talk. I came to terms with it when I was 28, but that was long after the even itself had occurred. Most transsexuals will tell you they knew from the time they understood the concept. It’s a different path for everyone.
I think a better way to phrase the question at this point would be at what point in the treatment process would the transsexual feel that her body is now in alignment with her mind / brain / essense? Or when is she physically a woman?
There is why the process is long and carefully screened. There may indeed be people who seek sexual reassignment who are satisfied with the results they get merely from dressing and acting the part. These people are not, however, transsexuals, and the process is designed to screen them out just for that reason.
You left out a major step, so I’m going to add it here:
For a lot of transsexuals, this is a major step and sometimes the major step. For me it was the biggest one, but I don’t think at this point it’s going to be enough. For most who have the resources it’s just an intermediate step.
For those who have the final SRS, this is usually the biggest step, though for some it may just be the final step. Treatment doesn’t end at this point, however, and it may still take years before the hormones finish their work, and the patient usually has some work to do on her feelings as well.
So the answer is, it depends on the individual. Treatment continues until it’s done its purpose, at which point more radical, invasive treatments are no longer necessary.
For me, it’s the whole package; the hormones, the surgery, the clothes, the social role in society, and the hormones.
Not everyone fits into a neat mold. Some do feel that they are intergender, or neutral. However, if this is how they feel, they are certainly not transsexuals, who unambiguously identify as the opposite gender from their physical sex.
You are correct about this. This is why it is necessary to correct one’s physical sex to match one’s mental gender, and not the other way around.
It isn’t just about happiness. It can literally be a life or death situation. It was for me. To describe this as “doing what makes you happy” as if it were a hobby belittles those of us who have had profound struggles with our gender identities.
The standard for identifying one’s sex for the longest period of human history has been the person’s genitals and secondary sex characteristics. Genes and chromosomes–genotype–are a relatively new way of thinking about this. The physical expression of one’s genetic makeup–phenotype–is still what most people think of when they think of male and female.
If anything, MTF transsexuals are embracing this idea–that the appearance of one’s body–their physical sex–should match the physical standard accepted for their gender. A physical male’s phenotype can be altered by surgery and hormone therapy to very closely approximate the appearance of the opposite sex. I am enthusiastically endorsing the societal standard of what a woman is supposed to be and doing everything in my power to be that, physically, and socially. It’s a simple matter of respect to recognize and accept that. You don’t have to understand, just accept and respect it.
In the specific situation of dating and intimate sexual relations, this is correct; people want to know what you were born as. They would want to know if your physical appearance had been altered to it’s current state or was natural.
However, even when sexual intimacy is not a factor, how we relate to others is at least in part based on how we percieve their physical sex. I interacted with probably 100 people today, and perhaps half a dozen gave a damn about what was in between my legs, but the majority of those interactions were affected in some way by the fact that these people saw me as a woman. The store clerk, the guys checking me and my wife out at the mall, the ticket-taker at the mall, the guy who opened the door to the bookstore for me, none of those interactions had anything to do with what’s between my legs, because none of those people are ever going to be in a position to know.
Some of those interactions may have been exactly the same had I been seen as a man, but having been on both sides of the fence, I can assure you it’s a lot fewer than you’d think.
We relate to others based on their sex in a lot of situations where intimacy of any kind is never an issue. When people interact with me as a woman in a non-sexual way because that’s how I present myself, my sense of identity is reaffirmed in a small way, and they are done no harm. If the store clerk who sold me the diet coke on the way home from work today knew I was a transsexual, that might have made him uncomfortable. People don’t want to know any more than what they need to know to successfully interact; often that knowledge comes primarily from appearance.
People often feel that transsexuals are lying to them, but other than that, I think you’re extremely wrong. And if they do ask that question with that expectation, that’s because With good reason, we’re used to the different gender indicators - chromosomes, appearance and identification - all matching up. So we assume that chromosomal gender is the “real” one, since someone with XY chromosomes identifies as a man and looks like a man. There’s no reason not to assume in that way until you discover that there are exceptions. Then you have to reassess. You have to figure out which is real, and why. Given the fact that we have a court case right now where killers are trying to use “transgender panic” as a defense, I think this is pretty important.
How can personal experience mean nothing with regard to identity? This makes it sound like you feel you - or society at large, who- and whatever that may be - has more say in defining an individual than the actual individual does. Why does society have the power to decide an individual’s identity, and what in the world makes you think that kind of identification would be accurate?
You sound offended, and I find that extremely confusing. Anyway the flip side of your statement is that because our standards for gender identity are old, people who find fault with them should just deal with it. If people are finding fault with the standard of gender identity, is there something wrong with them, or the standard? We’re not talking about laws here, we’re talking about categorizing people. If people don’t fit into the categories, it’s the categories that need adjustment. (This is like when people complaing about the evolving definitions of words.) Especially if the categories are so very deficient that they provoke responses like this, in which you’re taking the extreme step of overruling somebody else’s identity.
Transsexualism is not a new thing, nor is experimentation with gender identity. I think more people than ever are poking holes in the standards society has held for a long time, and I think that pretty much proves there are inadequacies in how we’ve defined gender. If you have to say “No, you’re wrong, I’ll tell you which category you’re in” to such large numbers of people, the categories aren’t working.
Only physical gender can be altered. We know you can’t change chromosomal gender. We’ve got posters in this thread saying mental (identification) gender isn’t mutable either. I’ll take their word for it; I’ve been male my whole life and I can’t imagine anything would convince me otherwise. So brickbacon and Clothahump, or anybody else who agrees with them, why is chromosomal gender “real,” and mental gender less relevant when they’re equally fixed? (I think that’s the idea people really have trouble with: that you can’t just change your mind on this particular subject, that mentality isn’t more adjustable than biology.) Why do you feel that people who use the mental standard are lying, either to themselves or others? I simply don’t understand this. That’s rather a heavy charge: “you’re lying about who you are.” Saying the chromosomal side has precedent is well and good, but the fact that it has precedent doesn’t make it accurate or more true. In my opinion precedent is what you fall back on when you can’t find any evidence of value. It’s weak. And I think there is real reason to support the “identification” side in this instance: scientific evidence (though more research needs to be done) and personal testimony.
And in any case, chromosomes don’t have much precedent. Appearance - the only changeable one - is what we’ve gone by for most of human history. Chromosomes are pretty recent.
Consider folks who have women’s bodies and women’s ways, but male chromosomes. Should they use public men’s restrooms?
If not, then what do you mean by “real”?
I say, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck.
I don’t care if my wife’s chromosomes turned out to be ZZ, no one could ever convince me she’s not “really” female.
Cause she aches just like a woman. Yes and she takes just like a woman. Yes she does, and she makes love just like a woman. Ah, but she breaks… my balls when I leave my shoes under the coffee table.
Do you really think everybody who feels offended by the idea of having sex with a transsexual is a bigot? Thats a pretty strong charge that I doubt you could ever back up. I think some of them are, but most would still see the transsexual as the sex the were before their surgery. That’s not bigotry, that’s an opinion you don’t agree with.
I have read all the links provided, but I don’t think that is enough to draw the conclusions many of you have. One summery I’ve read states the following:
"In summary, our finding of a sex difference in BSTc volume only in adulthood suggests that marked sex-dependent organizational changes in brain structure are not limited to early development but may extend into adulthood."
Although their studies do conclude that there are differences between a normal male and a MTF transsexual brain, they cannot pin point when or exactly how this happens. Taking into account they examined transsexuals who have received hormone treatments and other medications, I don’t think it can be naturally concluded that their brains were intially the way the appeared when they were examined. Not to mention that they only examined 42 people. That’s not a large sample size. Even assuming that I accepted that their conclusion, that doesn’t mean that it is impossible to change a “female” brain to a “male” one (as some have stated). In fact, it leads me to believe that it is not only possible, but likely.
If we accepted the data you and others provided, then it is clearly possible.
I disagree. Sure, you can use the word “whole” to create a distiction, but that would be faulty. Both people are attempting to match the physical to the mental.
Yes, and that is unfortunate, but it doesn’t prove your point or advance the argument. People who have Apotemnophilia also suffer in a similar way.
Wrong! Once again, most would say very unkind things. Stop trying to pretend you are in the majority on this. Your opinion is not the dominant one in the vast majority of circles, and anybody who disagrees with you isn’t a hateful monster or stupid.
I’m sorry you have had troubles, but I was not trying to belittle you or anybody else. I’m sorry my words didn’t capture the profound struggle you have gone through, but I’m pretty sure the sentiment was loud and clear. IF you are really interested in promoting a greater understanding of transsexuals, then perhaps it isn’t wise to continually judge those who disagree with you. I’m think I have taken more time than most would to voice my opinion and to listen to dissenting ones. The very least that you, and others could do is be respectful of that fact.
Really? So anything that someone else feels strongly about I just have to accept and respect without proof or reason. I’m not advocating that transsexuals are freaks and should be treated any differently than other people. So your tacit accusation that I have been disrespectful is unfair.
I don’t know about you, brickbacon, but I don’t think about having sex with every person I meet. Which is why it doesn’t matter to me whether you have male physiology because you were born with a penis or if you had one added surgically later on.
Are you telling me that the first time you see a person, the first think you think about is “I wonder if that’s a man or a woman, because if it’s a man I can have sex with it”?
Because that’s the logical conclusion that follows.
Please forgive my ignorance, but I can’t read legalese. The words all make sense taken one on one, but I’m having trouble understanding what’s what in this case.
Did the judge who was reversed deny the person estrogen, or was he reversed because he allowed it?
No, it is not in any circumstance germane to the debate.
Maybe nothing was too strong a word. I’ll amend that to very little. For example, just cause an African-American people feels they are Caucasian doesn’t make it so. Even if they bleached their skin and removed their AA features, they would still be AA. Sure the average person in scoiety would see them as white, but that doesn’t make it real. Society always has the power decide an individual’s identity. There are tons of examples if you really want me to list them. Most times, its society’s version that trumps yours. In this case, it’s accurate because the standards society uses are fair and accurate in the minds of the vast majority of people.
I’m not offended. My arguments is that transsexuals fit in the definded categories just find. There is not conflict here beyond the one transsexuals themselves feel. Most people have no problem calling a MTF transsexual a man. I have seen not compelling reason to change the standard we use. Also, since when to transsexuals represent “large numbers of people”. I could be wrong, but they certainly aren’t around in vast numbers.
Lying isn’'t the word because it involves deliberate deception. I would say their appraisals come to the incorrect conclusion. I think transsexuals are wrong if they think they should have been born a different way or are really a woman when they have the genes of a man. I think its more likely than not that they would be happier and more comfortable living as the opposite sex, but that does not mean that they are, or should have been. With that said, I think they should do whatever they can to make themselves happy (for lack of a better word).
But really, that is not the question at hand. Something that has become further and further obfuscated by people making emotional appeals and hurling insults. The question really boils down to whether you feel gender is determined by your genes or your feelings (because until the more conclusive research is done, there is no strong evidence to show that a MTF transsexual has a vastly different brain). I, feel your genes are more important.
We don’t have surgery that reassigns people’s visual racial characteristics, and maybe more importantly, that’s a question that’s got as much to do with heritage as it does identity. Heritage doesn’t enter into this debate. Nor, as far as I know, is there a disorder where people of one race think they should be another. You make this sound like somebody’s uninformed opinion rather than a medical condition.
If there was no conflict, I don’t think we’d be discussing this.
And this means what? Most people haven’t actually looked at the issue, so I don’t find this to be meaningful.
Depends on what you consider vast I suppose. This site says there are 30,000 to 40,000 post-op MTF transsexuals in the USA. I have no idea if that’s right; but there are also people who are pre-op, and FTM, and so on. Given those other categories and the fact that, like I said, there have been transgendered people throughout history across cultures, I do think it’s fair to say ‘large numbers.’
A post-operative transsexual tells other people they are their reassigned sex, don’t they? You’re saying this is wrong- do you mean they’re just deluded? That might fall under the “lying to yourself” category I included.
Yes, and we’re trying to figure out why that is. Whether the BSTc is involved or not, the “feelings” (you’ve framed this in a way that makes it sound trivial) are apparently no more changeable than the genes. So why do the genes win?
Just a slightly tongue-in-cheek question for those who adamantly refuse to think of someone by anything but their chromosomal sex - are you also the type of person who insists that people retain their natural hair color? What happens if the hot blonde you hook up with confesses to being a natural brunette? Do you refer to her as a brunette even though everyone else can plainly see she’s a blonde?
