One more time: Are transsexuals really female or really still male?

[malkavia]

@Eve

Not to brag, but if this dame is a man, a lot of straight fellows back in the late '70s and '80s would be surprised to find out they were gay.

Don’t mind me, I’ll just be in that corner over there seething with envy.

[brickbacon]

@KellyM

I don’t know about you, brickbacon, but I don’t think about having sex with every person I meet. Which is why it doesn’t matter to me whether you have male physiology because you were born with a penis or if you had one added surgically later on.

Are you telling me that the first time you see a person, the first think you think about is “I wonder if that’s a man or a woman, because if it’s a man I can have sex with it”?

Because that’s the logical conclusion that follows.

Yes, but the question was what answer would you expect if you were to ask someone their sex/gender. I don’t go asking people what sex they are. It is rude and insensitive and very little good could come of it. But, if I ever did, the most likely situation I can think of is if you were interested in them sexually.

@Marley23

We don’t have surgery that reassigns people’s visual racial characteristics, and maybe more importantly, that’s a question that’s got as much to do with heritage as it does identity. Heritage doesn’t enter into this debate. Nor, as far as I know, is there a disorder where people of one race think they should be another. You make this sound like somebody’s uninformed opinion rather than a medical condition.

Yes, they do have surgeries that transform one’s racial features. Also, there are plenty of people who feel they are of another race than they really are. I have met some.

@Marley23

If there was no conflict, I don’t think we’d be discussing this.

Sure we would, you think a conflict exists, I don’t. That’s what the discussion is about.

@Marley23

Depends on what you consider vast I suppose… Given those other categories and the fact that, like I said, there have been transgendered people throughout history across cultures, I do think it’s fair to say ‘large numbers.’

That’s not large numbers by any stretch in a country of close to 300 milllion people.

@Marley23

A post-operative transsexual tells other people they are their reassigned sex, don’t they? You’re saying this is wrong- do you mean they’re just deluded? That might fall under the “lying to yourself” category I included

No, they may not be deluded. I thnk that that is just their opinion. I disagree. Plenty of people think things about themselves that are not objectively true.

@Marley23

Yes, and we’re trying to figure out why that is. Whether the BSTc is involved or not, the “feelings” (you’ve framed this in a way that makes it sound trivial) are apparently no more changeable than the genes. So why do the genes win?

It is not my burden to prove that the genes win. That is the generally accepted standard. You are the one making a claim which you have to backup. You have attempted to prove that they don’t and have failed miserable. You’ve compared trangerism to homosexuality, klinefelter syndrome, and other things which are not analogous. Then included emotional appeals that have no place in a discussion of this type. Not to mention the fact that your own sites don’t draw the conclusions you have.

On a side note, how would you prefer I phrase it since “feelings” isn’t your cup of tea.

@LifeOnWry

Just a slightly tongue-in-cheek question for those who adamantly refuse to think of someone by anything but their chromosomal sex - are you also the type of person who insists that people retain their natural hair color? What happens if the hot blonde you hook up with confesses to being a natural brunette? Do you refer to her as a brunette even though everyone else can plainly see she’s a blonde?

That’s cute.

Yes, I do, because I am that type of guy. If I ever find out a women has dyed her hair or is using “appearance altering cosmetics”, I immediatly accuse them of being liars and refuse to talk to them again. I do this because I am a huge myopic asshole, and dying your hair is*** exactly ** * the same as hidng the fact that you used to have a penis. I can’t understand why anyone could see a difference between the two.

[Kaitlyn]

[QUOTE=brickbacon]

I disagree. Sure, you can use the word “whole” to create a distiction, but that would be faulty. Both people are attempting to match the physical to the mental.

A MTF transsexual seeks to gain things she lacks–female body chemistry, breasts, a vagina. Faulty body parts are being repaired along the way. The only body part that is removed is the testicles, the removal of which constitute a physical medical benefit to the patient.

None of this is true in the case of Apotemnophilia.

Yes, and that is unfortunate, but it doesn’t prove your point or advance the argument. People who have Apotemnophilia also suffer in a similar way.

Untreated transsexuals have a suicide rate that approaches 50%. They undergo a rigorous screening proceedure to determine if they are true transsexuals in need of sexual reassignment. Many who seek SRS are eliminated because they do not meet the well-established standards of care for the disorder. These people are treated through other, less invasive means.

Until all of the above can be said to be true of transsexualism, the two disorders are not analagous.

Wrong! Once again, most would say very unkind things. Stop trying to pretend you are in the majority on this. Your opinion is not the dominant one in the vast majority of circles, and anybody who disagrees with you isn’t a hateful monster or stupid.

I neither said nor implied any of these things.

You asked when a man seeking SRS becomes a woman, and I was trying to provide you with an answer.

I was in that paragraph, as in the four or five following it and all directly relating to it, describing how a transsexual would typically describe her disorder.

I’m sorry you have had troubles, but I was not trying to belittle you or anybody else. I’m sorry my words didn’t capture the profound struggle you have gone through, but I’m pretty sure the sentiment was loud and clear.

If you really do not mean to belittle the condition, and be dismissive of those with it, it would be prudent not to keep describing it as people doing what makes them happy. I read comic books and go to the movies and ride roller coasters and go shopping to make me happy. I am undergoing sexual reassignment because it is the only effective treatment for a serious medical disorder.

IF you are really interested in promoting a greater understanding of transsexuals, then perhaps it isn’t wise to continually judge those who disagree with you.

Where have I been disrespectful? Where have I said anything judgemental? I described a particular way of describing my condition as belittling it. You claim to have meant no offense, but then you continue to use the same way of describing it.

Really? So anything that someone else feels strongly about I just have to accept and respect without proof or reason.

I think that as a general rule, people’s beliefs should be accepted and respected so long as those beliefs are beneficial to them and do not harm us.

I don’t believe there is a God. I think that religion is rooted in superstition and is on its face unreasonable.

But when someone tells me they believe Jesus is the Son of God, I accept that they believe that and respect them by describing them as Christians. Their belief is reason enough for me to use the label they choose. Acceptance of and respect for others does not require that I agree with them.

I’m not advocating that transsexuals are freaks and should be treated any differently than other people. So your tacit accusation that I have been disrespectful is unfair.

If you mean no disrespect, it would be prudent to stop describing transsexuals who seek SRS as doing what makes them happy.

[Othersider]

@Kaitlyn

I don’t believe there is a God. I think that religion is rooted in superstition and is on its face unreasonable.

I know this belongs in another thread (if a moderator wishes to spin this off and move it, I’m all for it) but are you using the word “religion” to extend to theism as well?

[Marley23]

@brickbacon

Yes, they do have surgeries that transform one’s racial features.

If we pretend there is such a thing as racial features, then yes, that’s obvious. But you’ve overlooked the bigger point I made there, which is - as many of us have been sad to learn - there is no surgery to remove your parents. Any idiot knows you can’t change your heritage, and African-American (for example) is determined by your ancestry; surgery on the person who felt that way would not change the ancestry. That doesn’t apply to gender.

Also, there are plenty of people who feel they are of another race than they really are. I have met some.

If you say so. This is a recognized medical condition?

Sure we would, you think a conflict exists, I don’t. That’s what the discussion is about.

Alright, then there’s a conflict about whether there’s a conflict.

That’s not large numbers by any stretch in a country of close to 300 milllion people.

Again, that figure was only post-op MTF transsexuals. It didn’t include pre-op transsexuals, or FTM transsexuals of either sort, or any number of other transgendered people. And again, as I said, this has existed far back into history. I doubt it’s ever been a large chunk of the population, but I do think it’s plenty of people.

It is not my burden to prove that the genes win. That is the generally accepted standard. You are the one making a claim which you have to backup. You have attempted to prove that they don’t and have failed miserable.

On the other hand, in this thread it looks like everybody except you and Clothahump thinks the way I do. So where does that leave us? I’m not trying to convince the population at large, and in here this argument doesn’t seem to be a miserable failure at all. Like I said already (also), I don’t see what’s so impressive about your claim of precedent. I don’t care how old it is. An argument is either right or it’s not. Entering into a debate and then saying you don’t have to prove your side is lazy.

On a side note, how would you prefer I phrase it since “feelings” isn’t your cup of tea.

I don’t have a word in mind. Something that reflects that this is a permanent thing - people’s feelings change all the time - just might be a little more accurate.

[Kaitlyn]

@Othersider

I know this belongs in another thread (if a moderator wishes to spin this off and move it, I’m all for it) but are you using the word “religion” to extend to theism as well?

No. I was referring to organized religion, not the philisophical concepts of deism or theism.

If you want to debate an issue, you don’t have to have a mod move it, just start up the thread yourself. As long as you have an issue to discuss and are ready to discuss it reasonably, you’re likely to get takers.

[DocCathode]

I knew I should have just searched past threads for cites.

Cite That Hormone Therapy Doesn’t Affect Adult Stria Terminalis

Page 1

This idea is further supported by observations in humans,which indicate that dramatic changes in circulating gonadal steroid levels do not seem to alter the size of the BSTc in adult control subjects. For instance, high testosterone and andro-stenedione levels caused by an adrenal cortex tumor in a female control subject did not result in a larger BSTc, whereas gonadectomy in male control subjects with prostate cancer did not result in a smaller BSTc (Zhou et al., 1995; Kruijver et al., 2000)

Page 5-6

However, data from six cases reported in previous studies suggest that the BSTc volume, as delineated by VIP orsomatostatin immunocytochemical staining, is not affected by marked increases or decreases in gonadal steroid levels in adult-hood. A normal female-sized BSTc was found in one control female with increased androgen levels and in two postmenopausal control females with low gonadal steroid levels. Furthermore, a normal male-sized BSTc was found in a control male with high estrogen levels caused by a feminizing adrenal tumor and in two control males who were orchidectomized as a result of prostate cancer. The possibility that gonadal steroid-dependent changes in VIP or somatostatin neuropeptide expression underlie the changes BSTc volume, such as, in quail preoptic area, rat medialamygdala and human amygdala (Panzica et al., 1987; Giedd et al.,1996; Cooke et al., 1999), is also not supported by these six caseswho had marked changes in gonadal steroid levels, although their the BSTc volume was normal for their gender (Zhou et al., 1995;Kruijver et al. 2000).

To put it simply, while it is possible that hormone therapy affects the stria terminalis in adults the evidence so far all shows that it isn’t.

Mtf transsexuals don’t have female brains because of the hormones they take, they need the hormones because they have female brains.

[Eve]

Thank you, Doc. With you around, I don’t have to go fishing through my yellowing files of newspaper clippings on the subject!

And y’all can have my brain to section now. I’m not using it for anything, I’m just a copy editor . . .

[DocCathode]

It isn’t just my usual cites I’ve forgotten to bring to this thread. I forgot my mandatory post-

Should a woman I am dating tell me that she is a transsexual, I would not feel betrayed or angered. It certainly wouldn’t cause me to break up with her. Finding out that a woman is a transsexual would not prevent me from asking her out. Finding out a woman is not Jewish would.

[Lamia]

@brickbacon

I do this because I am a huge myopic asshole, and dying your hair is*** exactly ** * the same as hidng the fact that you used to have a penis. I can’t understand why anyone could see a difference between the two.

I have never understood this whole “use to have a penis” hang-up. I can understand it if dick doesn’t do it for ya – doesn’t do much for me either. But why get hung up over a penis that no longer exists? If the penis is so repulsive that even the phantom shade of penis past is enough to turn a straight man off an otherwise attractive woman, I must wonder how these men manage to carry on knowing that they themselves are tained by that hideous organ.

[umop_ap_sdn]

@brickbacon

It is not my burden to prove that the genes win. That is the generally accepted standard.

No that’s not the generally accepted standard. If it were, then all XY people would be classified as men. Women with AIS have XY chromosomes but are women nonetheless. Just that in and of itself disqualifies genetics as the be all end all determining factor.

[brickbacon]

@Kaitlyn

A MTF transsexual seeks to gain things she lacks–female body chemistry, breasts, a vagina. ***Faulty body parts ** * are being repaired along the way. The only body part that is removed is the testicles, the removal of which constitute a physical medical benefit to the patient. (my bolding)

None of this is true in the case of Apotemnophilia.

Sure it is. People with Apotemnophilia want to get rid of “faulty body parts” too. My opinion is that they are not faulty, but if you take the position that they are, Apotemnophilia in no way differes from Transgenderism in that regard. In the cases I have read about Apotemnophilia, the people generally improve if they are able to get rid of the body part they don’t think belongs there. So amputation is also of a medical benefit to them as well. Not that any of this has to do with whether or not a MTF is still a man.

@Kaitlyn

Untreated transsexuals have a suicide rate that approaches 50%. They undergo a rigorous screening proceedure to determine if they are true transsexuals in need of sexual reassignment. Many who seek SRS are eliminated because they do not meet the well-established standards of care for the disorder. These people are treated through other, less invasive means.

Until all of the above can be said to be true of transsexualism, the two disorders are not analogous.

Analogous does not mean exactly the same, it means similar. They are analogous in many ways. The differences you mention stem from the fact the transgenderism is far more common than Apotemnophilia, thus there are established ways that the medical communiuty deals with it.

@Kaitlyn

I think that as a general rule, people’s beliefs should be accepted and respected so long as those beliefs are beneficial to them and do not harm us.
I don’t believe there is a God. I think that religion is rooted in superstition and is on its face unreasonable. But when someone tells me they believe Jesus is the Son of God, I accept that they believe that and respect them by describing them as Christians. Their belief is reason enough for me to use the label they choose. Acceptance of and respect for others does not require that I agree with them. If you mean no disrespect, it would be prudent to stop describing transsexuals who seek SRS as doing what makes them happy.

I agree with your rule in the sense that if I had face to face interactions with you, I would label you as you wish, but I will not change my standards for determining gender unless credible evidence comes along that confirms your hypothesis. On your other point, how would you like me to describe transsexuals?

@umop ap!sdn

No that’s not the generally accepted standard. If it were, then all XY people would be classified as men. Women with AIS have XY chromosomes but are women nonetheless. Just that in and of itself disqualifies genetics as the be all end all determining factor.

AIS, which this site that explains it is careful to differentiate from transgenderism, is a GENETIC DISORDER. How many times must we go over the fact that genetic disorders are not the same as transgenderism, and do not point to a fallibility in the gender identity standards we have used? You guys keep arguing things that have nothing to do with the question at hand. It boils down whether you feel your genetic makeup trumps your feelings. Yes, I am once again using the word “feelings” until someone comes up with a better word, and it is proven that MTF transsexuals are indeed biologically different in ways that create gender dysphoria. Even when/if this is proven, it becomes necessary to decide if the standard we use to determine what a woman is has become obsolete.

@Lamia

I have never understood this whole “use to have a penis” hang-up. I can understand it if dick doesn’t do it for ya – doesn’t do much for me either. But why get hung up over a penis that no longer exists? If the penis is so repulsive that even the phantom shade of penis past is enough to turn a straight man off an otherwise attractive woman, I must wonder how these men manage to carry on knowing that they themselves are tained by that hideous organ.

I really don’t know if I could explain this to you , but it matters.

[umop_ap_sdn]

@brickbacon

AIS, which this site that explains it is careful to differentiate from transgenderism, is a GENETIC DISORDER. How many times must we go over the fact that genetic disorders are not the same as transgenderism, and do not point to a fallibility in the gender identity standards we have used?

As many times as it takes to establish that gender identity is not in the genes. AIS women have XY chromosomes and female gender identity, just like M2F women. They differ in that AIS causes female external genitalia at birth; transgenderism does not. I am not saying they are the same; I am saying they are similiar in those respects, and the reason I brought it up in the first place was to counter your assertion that genetics were the determining factor in gender identity.

I really don’t know if I could explain this to you , but it matters.

I’d appreciate it if you tried to explain, because I’m not sure I understand either.

[Guinastasia]

@Lamia

the phantom shade of penis past

PHHHBBLLLTTT!!!

DAMN, Lamia, please post a warning before you say something like that!

[Kaitlyn]

[QUOTE=brickbacon]
Sure it is. People with Apotemnophilia want to get rid of “faulty body parts” too. My opinion is that they are not faulty, but if you take the position that they are, Apotemnophilia in no way differes from Transgenderism in that regard. In the cases I have read about Apotemnophilia, the people generally improve if they are able to get rid of the body part they don’t think belongs there. So amputation is also of a medical benefit to them as well. Not that any of this has to do with whether or not a MTF is still a man.

I agree. Apotemnophilia is irrelevant to this debate.

I agree with your rule in the sense that if I had face to face interactions with you, I would label you as you wish

So why do you come in here and tell me I’m still a man? Isn’t this entire debate really about what label to use for a MTF transsexual?

but I will not change my standards for determining gender unless credible evidence comes along that confirms your hypothesis.

You’ve been presented with the evidence.

On your other point, how would you like me to describe transsexuals?

Women. She. Her. It does you no harm, and it respects what they want to be called.

[Othersider]

@Kaitlyn

Women. She. Her. It does you no harm, and it respects what they want to be called.

I respect that. Everyone has his or her own personal standard, and mine is to call people what they want to be called.

My birth certificate lists my name as “Andrew”, but all my friends have been calling me “Andy” since I was a teenager. I don’t see how that’s any different than gender references. If you believe you’re a woman, I think you deserve to be called one.

Now, the government may argue that, for their purposes, you’re still a man, because of whatever standards they have for determining sex - but I’m not the government, and I have no reason not to call you a woman if you believe you are one.

[Scylla]

For better or for worse, I’ll share my personal opinions:
I’m a man and I feel pretty comfortable with that. To be honest though, if I had the chance to spend a day or a week incarnated as a women (preferably a supermodel,) I’d be curious to try it out, though I feel I would only do this if it were temporary.

On the other side of the coin, if I woke up tomorrow and found that I’d been magically transmuted into a woman to stay, I wouldn’t be too happy about it. My main problem wouldn’t be one of self-identity, but of my life which I’ve lived as a male having children and getting married.

Assuming that I wasn’t married and didn’t have kids and suddenly woke up female one morning, I probably wouldn’t be happy about it…

but…

If I woke up female, I would probably opt to stay that way if the only alternative was an imperfect operation that left me still genetically female but with a male prosthesis, and the physique of a female.

If I was a male who felt like he was really a woman, I guess that I would probably choose to remain male rather than undergo an imperfect procedure that would only approximate my true desires. I guess if I was a male who underwent a sex change I would probably feel like a woman living in a maimed man’s body rather than a woman living in a woman’s body.

I guess I’d rather have a top notch pickup truck, than a broken Porsche.

I also, personally don’t define myself by my external genitalia or sexual preference. Most of that seems moot to who I really am. I would still be me if I was a girl having sex with guys, a guy having sex with other guys, or a girl having sex with other girls.

These are of course my choices and beleifs. I fully recognize and understand that other people may feel differently.

To answer the OP directly. I feel a transexual is a woman. Sexuality is, after all, entirely in the mind. If you feel female that’s what you are. If you feel male, that’s what you are. The body you inhabit is not really important to that fact.

I feel sympathetic to transgendered persons in that they felt trapped in the wrong gender body, and that it bothered them so much that they felt compelled to do something about it.

That, in an of itself is a pretty terrible situation. I feel doubly sympathetic that the science of surgery only offers an imperfect solution.

[BrainGlutton]

@Scylla

I’m a man and I feel pretty comfortable with that.

You should have picked a different username. Scylla was a female monster.

[even_sven]

@brickbacon

You’re right, most people don’t know anything about genetics. However, I still feel most people typically would want to know what you were born as. I think the example I gave before sums it up pretty well. What percentage of heterosexual males would date a MTF transsexual? Despite the fact that they look, feel, smell, and act like a woman. Despite the fact that the differences are imperceptible. The vast majority would find the idea offensive.

You’d be surprised. Ever think about asking some people who’ve been there?

[Polycarp]

@Lamia

I have never understood this whole “use to have a penis” hang-up. I can understand it if dick doesn’t do it for ya – doesn’t do much for me either. But why get hung up over a penis that no longer exists? If the penis is so repulsive that even the phantom shade of penis past is enough to turn a straight man off an otherwise attractive woman, I must wonder how these men manage to carry on knowing that they themselves are tained by that hideous organ.

Carrying your A Christmas Carol metaphor a little further ahead, might it be because they know that next on the agenda after “the phantom shade of penis past” is the phantom shade of penis yet to come?!