One should cultivate the Ego over the Id.

Great Debates
1

To be human is to be a rational, thinking being. It should therefore be a primary aim of any human to cultivate the mind.

Obtaining new skills. Training the memory. Pursuing mental control of the body through strenuous physical exercise, which I believe was one of the original purposes of the mystical Gurdjieff dances.

I think the prime aim should be to assert conscious control over the lower urges.

For example, you probably have a primitive urge to be warm. So, step into a cold shower. Force yourself to write with your left hand. Unless you are a sinister fellow. Fast, or abstain from food. Assume a stress position. Confront your fears. And so on.

This is both attainable and metaphysically desirable. Whether it has any desirable effect is unimportant.

2

Hurting yourself like that is self destructive. “Primitive urges” are quite often the smart thing to do; that’s why they evolved.

:dubious: Of course it matters if it has a “desirable effect”. You are contradicting yourself in fact; if it doesn’t matter if it has a desirable effect, then you shouldn’t care if it’s “metaphysically desirable”.

3

Relevant move passage

4

I disagree with your assertion that what makes a human is the rational, thinking being. Certainly, that is a part of what we are, but if that were all we were, then we’re really nothing different than biological computers. Now, of course, one could make the argument that that’s all we really are, but I think that our more primitive drives and urges are part of what shape the human experience. That is, I think what makes a human is an aim to find the proper balance between our base instincts and our rational minds.

I can go through life thoroughly indulging my base instincts, and I’m likely an utter failure, on a personal and social level. On the other hand, if I stick to only my rational mind, I may be able to be a contributing member of society, but I miss out the parts of life that make it worth living. In fact, as a human, finding a proper balance between these can make it so we can potentially excel even more at both. So, for instance, I can work hard at my job and make sure I eat healthy and get exercise, but it’s also important to have vacations, have pleasurable experiences, seek out friends and other relationships.

We shouldn’t make choices just to fly in the face of our baser instincts but, instead, we should rationally decide the costs and the benefits associated with them. Yes, it’s a bad idea to blow my savings on an expensive sports car when I would be better off using it toward paying off debts or buying a home. But why would it make sense to deliberately make myself cold just as an FU to my id? Besides, a lot of the deeper desires we have have some basis in reason, as they evolved to be our instincts for a reason. The question is whether those reasons still make sense in a modern world or toward furthering other goals I’ve consciously set.

My goal, in general, is to make sure I’m not just giving in to my more base desires, but to decide if it actually makes sense for me. For instance, in general, we have a biological urge to procreate. So, do I really want kids, or would that just be me giving in to that biological urge. Or, if I have a goal of competing in a marathon, maybe I will pass on a piece of cake, if not, maybe a small treat is worth it.

In short, this seems like taking an extreme approach to controlling one’s urges. It’s like, sure, one person might over-indulge in alcohol and become a drunk, so to avoid that someone else decides never to have a drop. Why can’t a reasonable person have a nice glass of wine with a good meal or share a beer with a friend from time to time? It’s not a one or the other, it’s a false dichotomoy, and I think the idea of ego over id is a similar situation.

5

None of the things you quoted constitute “hurting yourself.” There’s a difference between hurting yourself and doing what is uncomfortable or difficult.

Your second sentence is not incorrect, but it’s not the whole story. Your instincts and primitive urges don’t necessarily have your best interests in mind. “Why they evolved” was to enable your long-ago ancestors to pass along their genetic material to future generations, which doesn’t necessarily match what would make you healthy and happy in the conditions of your modern life.

6

No, that is to be a Vulcan.

A ration being should know that a conclusion based on a false premise isn’t necessarily true.

Knock yourself. Why do you need our approval?

7

One could argue the Ego is the most destructive of all humanity. It is what separates us from one another.

8

Mmmmmmm, lower urges.

9

But we are not ONLY rational, thinking beings. We are also physical beings and emotional beings. Cultivating these is important too.

These “lower urges” are what brings pleasure and joy into our lives. There is nothing to be gained from deprivation and suffering for their own sake.

A desirable effect is the ONLY thing that’s important, and the primary goal is your own happiness.

10

How cute. Someone who believes in the existence of “id” and “ego”!

11

And someone has been reading up on Buddhism and/or Stoicism.

12

As a Scrabble player, “id” is very important; “ego” not so much.

13

Id agree with you, but I’ve got to be egoing now.

14

Stress damages you, physically and emotionally; too much of it kills. Forcing yourself to write with your off hand causes permanent damage; plenty of people who were forced to do just that as part of the crusade against left handedness complain of it. And forcing yourself into stress positions can also do plenty of harm; there’s a reason forcing people into those positions is used as a torture technique.

Nor did I say they did. I was making the point that assuming that they don’t and going against them for its own sake is foolish, and ignores the cases where they do apply. And can get you crippled or killed. I’m not going to pound on my hand with a hammer or the equivalent just to defy my “id”.

15

Well, a better example might be daily exercise. It takes discipline, and that doesn’t come easily. But the long-term rewards vastly outweigh the short-term gratification of lazing around the pool drinking beer.

Self-education is on this list. Read a good book now and then. Read a challenging book. Read a book on a subject you don’t know much about. I know very little about the Thirty Years War, and am shopping around for a good introductory book on the subject.

So…I largely agree with your proposition, but recommend it be more focused.

(Let’s not get into a “Freud was a crank” highjack, please! I don’t “believe in” the Id or Ego, but I think they’re perfectly valid terms in ordinary non-technical conversation.)

16

The problem is, that contradicts part of the OP’s position:

You are giving examples of undergoing unpleasant experiences in return for various benefits; the OP is claiming that it’s irrelevant whether or not going against your instincts benefits you, you should do it because it’s “metaphysically desirable”.

In other words, you shouldn’t exercise to get fitter, but only because it’s unpleasant, and you shouldn’t take into consideration whether or not it does benefit you. Trying to run on a broken leg for example is even more against one’s “lower urges”, and you shouldn’t worry that it can cripple you - that’s a matter of desirability, and therefore “unimportant”.

17

I guess it would be too pleasurable for the OP to return to his own thread.

I’m thinking “witnessing”.

18

The OP is a bit contradictory there. He suggests exercise and learning and other self-improvements, but then takes it back later and said that actual benefits aren’t important.

If the outcome has no moral dimension, then, fuck it, I’m gonna get drunk, eat too much, and die young and happy.

But the OP implies that there is a goal of self-improvement: "Obtaining new skills. Training the memory. Pursuing mental control of the body through strenuous physical exercise. . . . "

And this was the part I agree with. Whether it’s abstract Stoicism or goal-directed Epicureanism, I’m not really clear. I don’t jump into cold showers, because I don’t see any self-improvement coming from it, but I read, and train, and exercise because I can feel the benefits.

(My sense is that the OP got carried away by enthusiasm and said a little more than he really meant.)

ETA: John Mace: as drive-by witnessing goes, it’s a lot more compatible with most of our views here than an awful lot of other witnessing has been.

19

Really? What are “our views”?

20

Polite ones.

Sir.