So, in response to the Alison True’s reply “Are aphids born pregnant?” regarding the “one known case” of virgin birth, well I think Cecil is getting somewhat out of hand. Saying one known case, we don’t know this. Millions of Christians assume it’s true because some old guy in Rome says so, this is the same man that says condoms are dangerous, so I’d take anything he said with a grain of salt. Or for those of versions of Christianity other than Catholicism who are encouraged/allowed to read their sacred texts they may say so because “the Bible says so” (by far my favorite reasoning, I say the Bible says that the square root of two does not exist, so it must be true). Well lets remember that this is the same text which says the man who’s mother was a virgin (and if a virgin gave birth to a child, i.e. sans sperm, it would be female) also died, then undied (?), and then flew off into outer space. If that’s not good enough then how about Moses raising his arms and spliting the sea into two halfs, just long enough for all the Hebrews to pass but not the Egyptians. I don’t think it very plausable that Moses held his arms up signaling the draught. ;j
Well this is just one skeptics opinion, or at least a good portion of it.
The point of the virgin birth was its miraculous nature and the absence of original sin in Jesus, not some half-baked genetic argument.
Outer space?
Draught?
That’s a remarkable amount of drivel for a first post. Welcome to the SDMB, deftriver, but for goodness’ sake, son (or daughter, whichever), get a grip.
RR
John, your arguement, what is you say no so it must not be true. Okay I believe you. But wait there are millions of Christians who believe its true because some old guy in Rome says so. What to believe the facts or John W. Kennedy. Well Jack I’m gonna go with what’s worked for me for years, the facts.
No, they believe it because it is part of their long-standing religious tradition. You make it sound like if the Pope said that they were green that they’d believe it…
Facts? While I’ll be the first to admit that there are no facts that the ressurection of Jesus did occur, care to offer proof of your “fact” that it did not, in fact, occur.
No, I’m not trying to shift the burden of proof. But he says that he has “facts” that something didn’t happen. I’m just calling him (her?) on it.
You people really need to pull your head out of the sand, or the place where you probably actually do have them and take a critical look at things.
There are MILLIONS OF CHRISTIANS in the world that believe every thing the pope says.
A virgin birth, miraculous or what ever, could not result in a male child. Was Jesus trans, if so he’s got some more resepct from me. All evidence all ready points towards his being gay.
The Assecention (sp?) after Jesus got up from being dead said his goodbyes, etc. he was raised into the air, don’t you remember your Catechism? That place that he went, people refer to it as heaven, it’s also called outer space a lot more often.
Draught, while it may be spell wrong, I have mathematics degree not a grammer one, means long period without rain.
And as for my square root of two arguement. I hear all the time stupid people saying things like “The bible says abortion is wrong” (please go to another thread to post on this topic, this is just an example) when in truth the bible mentions abortion twice, and never to say it’s wrong. So if these people fabricate things in the bible I might as well be allowed to. I choose to borrow from the Greeks, Pythagorous to be precise, who said the square root of two does not exist
Well RR, at least my drivel. if must call it that, makes sense, your response is like a small child’s “unh-uh” I suggest the next time you attack a persons arguement you get some supporting evidence.
Zev, the facts I’m talking about to John are weather Christians believe something because the pope says so. And while there are still people in Africa, essentially infecting themselves with HIV, and bringing HIV+ children into this world, we have evidence that what the pope says is believed by millions. Since it is after all the pope who issued the statement that condoms are evil.
Well actually we are discussing wheather millions of Christians believe what the pope says. Since these are both things the pope says there are not differences.
I’m not sure, you need sperm to make the male offspring. I think scientifically, I see absolutely no way for a virgin birth to be anything other than female. God would have to be one hell of a woman to make sperm materailize without a man present.
I have read it. What I’m saying the splitting of the Re(e)d Sea did not break all laws of physics because some Hebrew dude held up his hands. That is far more likely the reason the Hebrews were able to leave Egypt with the path they are said to have taken was due to the fact that there was a drought. Which in many ways may be a miracle but not the kind that “the Bible says” happened.
How am I supposed to know Zev is a male name, I would be more likely to name a daughter Zev then a son. When you said “But he says that he has…” I have no idea you are speaking of.
Well, you have to define what you mean by “believe what the Pope says.” If the Pope were to say that Jesus was born of a virgin birth, they’d believe it (and NOT [your claims aside] simply because “the Pope said so”]. But if the Pope said “2+2=5,” I don’t think you’d find more than a few dozen ultracrackpots who’d believe it.
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And that’s why God is God. Just becuase you can’t do something doesn’t mean that God can’t either.
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Then you’re presenting your own theory on what happened, not on what was presented in Exodus. If you’re going to comment on the Exodus story, then do so.
For starters, it’s clear in the Exodus story that the splitting was NOT caused by a drought. Secondly, it’s clear from the Exodus story that Moses didn’t hold his hands up the whole time.
I wasn’t expecting you to know that Zev is a male name; I was pointing it out to you. But now you know - congratulations, you’ve learned something today.
In any event, I was speaking of you. You are the one stating that the Ressurection not occuring is a fact. I simply asked you to back that up with evidence.
Zev has already pointed out how incorrect this is.
Well, big silly old me, forgetting my laws of miracles.
And that “evidence” would be what?
The Christian Heaven and outer space are not synonymous, no matter how much you seem to think so.
No. I am not Catholic. I have never so much as seen or heard a catechism.
Drought is one thing, and, again, Zev has dealt with that issue. Draught is something else entirely, but since it isn’t what you were trying to say it’s a moot point.
In other words, a fallacious argument is fine as long as you’re the one making it?
RR
Why do transsexuals (I’m assuming that’s what you meant) get more respect from you? Simply because he was (so you believe) transsexual?
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Riverrun already called you on this, but I’d like to add a “me too” here. Aside from an external reference to him in Josephus, there is almost no independent evidence of Jesus’ existence outside the Gospels. So, exactly what “evidence” do you have that Jesus was gay?
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“Into the air” is not (by definition) outer space.
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So then you’re problem is with the Greeks, not Christians. :rolleyes:
Zev and RR have already done a good job responding to these… claims? But I couldn’t resists jumping in…
deft, I think you are the one who needs a lesson in critical logic. See below.
Already responded to aptly before, but this is not true. Some people beleive everything he says, true. I doubt you’d find millions who’d beleive him if he said that water is toxic. Most people who do beleive him beleive him because most of what he says clarifies points of doctrine (or dogma, whichever). Most people don’t follow any leader blindly. If they do, they’re not exercising their critical minds, which we should always try to do. And I am not Catholic.
Just because you don’t understand how it was done doesn’t mean it isn’t possible. Nearly every Christian claims it was a miracle, but few will claim to know how it was done. That’s why it was such a big deal! If you didn’t know how an airplane flys, does that mean it can’t?
Why? Are you trans? Are transsexuals paragons of virtue?
Along with Zed and RR What evidence?! Because he hung out with the apostles? Lots of straight men hang out with other men. That doesn’t make them gay. There is also evidence that he was married, but there isn’t proof of either. There isn’t even any proof that Jesus really existed! Or that he didn’t! They are matters of faith.
Trying to prove or disprove matters of faith is usually fruitless. But, deft, you’re making claims that lack even as much support than the Christians making the claims put forth!
deftriver, when you start a thread, it is helpful to others if you provide a link to the column being discussed. I’ve edited such a link into your intial post.
However, the forum Comments on Cecil’s Column is for discussion of Cecil’s Column, and this thread is barely related to a throw-away joke line in that column. I’m therefore moving this to Great Debates.
Well I say this Cecil shouldn’t go into comedy, because that line certainly did not come across as a joke. He said one known case, and all I was saying is that no one knows.
That said I’m done with you idiots! You go on with your bible thumping beliefs, leave me out of it.
Any chance of moving this to the Pit so we can have some real fun?
I’m an atheist. There are numerous errors in your OP, already well taken care of by others. To make it clear for the main gist of your op allow me to summarize: Miracles don’t have to follow science. Attempting to apply science to miraculous events is pointless.
I wouldn’t want you leaving thinking only the bible-thumping zealots who found your thread wrong.