One year, one month, two days, twelve hours and eight minutes from now...

The BBQ Pit
41

[QUOTE=Rhubarb]
IS it so obvious that no one has mentioned it, or am I the only one to read and put that together with the rules prohibiting a member of the military from publicly criticizing their superior officers?

I haven’t seen Airman Doors come back to explain his OP, but I think what he is subtly trying to convey is that he only has to hold his tongue for another 13 months. I wonder how many other active duty military feel the same?

eta: You all make good points, but I don’t think Doors believes the war will end, or even that a new administration will make a difference. Just that he can’t properly express himself about the current CinC, 'cause it’s like treason, or sedition, or malingering, or arky-malarkey or something.
[/QUOTE]

Same reading over here, in fact prior posts of his elsewhere have hinted at that as well: *“I will have the mother of all rants” * … damn, y’know, having to go 7 years w/o being able to say anything disparaging about W is another one of those sacrifices someone has to make for their country. Once George ceases to be CinC and becomes Citizen W expect a lot of folks in officialdom to change their public opinion of Mr. Bush. (I don’t expect that much of the military brass to tear into him, though – they may consider it in poor taste)

Hold on there, D, you’re one of the good ones.

42

I seem to recall Dave unleashing more than one tirade on GeeDub, terms like “disparaging” being rather mild. So if the boy’s holding back, we’d best put up a supply of fireproofed booties for the hamsters, 'cause when he really lets it all hang out…hellzapoppin!

(Note to self…popcorn. Be sure to have some popcorn…)

43

This war will be going on after W leaves office; the question is for how long.

44

[QUOTE=Mosier]
The troops won’t be all coming home anytime soon, but it’s possible the fighting and bombing could slow down. I might be overly optimistic here, but I’m not ready to dismiss the possibility of some political stability in the next few years.
[/QUOTE]

I’m afraid the only chance of that is if a nationalist bloc opposed to the Maliki government comes to power in Iraq. Which the U.S. presence would only obstruct.

45

[QUOTE=elucidator]
It as old as dirt, the Spartans knew it, Shaka Zulu knew it, it never fails. Take a young man, break his connections to the life he knew and forge new bonds. There is (apparently) a human instinct of bonding with comrades, mildly in hunting parties, adamantine in modern combat. Men who have nothing in common become closer than brothers. Or, perhaps more to the point, men feel as though they were closer than brothers. Viet Nam, Iraq, Gallipoli, the effect is the same.

Leaders foster this, encourage it, and then exploit it. A man will feel he cannot speak the truth, for truth is disloyal, and the value of loyalty exceeds the value of truth. Most especially, he can’t speak such truth to outsiders, civilians, weaklings who have no comprehension of the value of loyalty.

It is not evil in and of itself, it is a form of love, after all. But it can be exploited and perverted for evil purposes. And the responsibility lies with us, the civilians, to accept and understand, and do our level best to assure that we pledge as much loyalty to them as they pledge to us, that we protect them as they protect us. And never to forget that to pound drums and wave flags while we send men to futile and immoral combat is just about as evil as it gets.
[/QUOTE]

So true, so sad and true.
Like the character in the Green Mile said:

[QUOTE=John Coffey]
He kill them wi’ their love. Wi’ their love fo’ each other. That’s how it is, every day, all over the world.
[/QUOTE]

46

[QUOTE=elucidator]
It as old as dirt, the Spartans knew it, Shaka Zulu knew it, it never fails. Take a young man, break his connections to the life he knew and forge new bonds. There is (apparently) a human instinct of bonding with comrades, mildly in hunting parties, adamantine in modern combat. Men who have nothing in common become closer than brothers. Or, perhaps more to the point, men feel as though they were closer than brothers. Viet Nam, Iraq, Gallipoli, the effect is the same.

Leaders foster this, encourage it, and then exploit it. A man will feel he cannot speak the truth, for truth is disloyal, and the value of loyalty exceeds the value of truth. Most especially, he can’t speak such truth to outsiders, civilians, weaklings who have no comprehension of the value of loyalty.

It is not evil in and of itself, it is a form of love, after all. But it can be exploited and perverted for evil purposes. And the responsibility lies with us, the civilians, to accept and understand, and do our level best to assure that we pledge as much loyalty to them as they pledge to us, that we protect them as they protect us. And never to forget that to pound drums and wave flags while we send men to futile and immoral combat is just about as evil as it gets.
[/QUOTE]

Dude, for all the insults I have hurled at you in the past, for all the differences in opinion we have had, for pretty much everything I have ever said to you in the past and most assuredly in the future, for pretty much everything at all, you have never been as close to the truth as you are with this statement. God bless you. For all of my pretense at intelligence, this is what I wish I had been able to say. Thank you.

47

I’ve been thinking a lot about this thread, and the whole psychology behind the military machine (IMHO, of course). When I see people like Airman grappling with deep issues, I equate it to what I call the Conscience Canary.

When you are called up (or sign up), you enter a very dark place. And in this place the people who rule have one objective, to find and kill that canary.

Sleep deprivation, shitty food, physical and psychological abuse - everything is designed to find and silence that canary. Every time you stumble onto the parade ground for yet another mindless PT session, every time you collapse under the weight of the biggest fuck in your platoon, every time you leopard crawl through someone else’s puke, and then puke yourself - every time this happens, the closer they get to that canary’s cage. And when eventually they find the cage (as they inevitably will) and crush it, they rejoice - ooowahhh.

But for some people the canary somehow manages to escape, and retreats to the dark corners of the coal mine of the mind, and there it sings its song. And it continues to sing, drowned out by the sergeant’s shouting, the thunder of mortars, the coughing and spluttering and puking of a comrade doubled over from tear gas.

And then one day the clouds of basic training clear, and you are sent to wherever the piece of paper says you must go. And then you start getting the silences. The clikkity clack of the train, the long hours on guard duty, waiting in line for more crap food. And in those silences the canary’s singing rises up and then drifts away, up and away.

And then the questions start. Questions you have been ordered not to ask. And then you realise that this is the mother of all movies, this is hardcore XXX pawnography.

48

Look, saoirse, with all due respect, I have no beef w/you and I apologize for coming back so harshly.

But see the reason we appear at odds is because we’re speaking and/or arguing about different things. For while you are on about the strict literal meaning of it all, that is not what I what am alluding to. I guess we can attribute said misunderstanding to my own inability to truly capture in writing what it is that I am on about. But that is why I pointed you towards both Mellivora’s and RickJay’s posts which I though captured the essence of my thoughts better than I possibly could. And due to said shortcomings now it’s 'luc and again, Mellivora, who have bettered moi* again. Not that difficult mind you.

Give them a read and see if we can come to the middle of the road. Or is that a fork instead? Up to you.

Take care.

*Did I get my French right this time? :wink:

’luc, amigo, I know you despise praise what with your naturally modest persona, but that was some crafty and powerful piece. One of the best I’ve read from you. And I think that’s saying something.

:::sniffs:::

Mellivora, same to you, though I don’t know how your ego works.

:::sigh:::

Some Pit thread this is, huh, Dave? Personally I think it should become a sticky. Great heartfelt stuff from all of you. Thank you.

With that said, all the best, kids. Have a wonderful season with all your loves ones. And way beyond that as well.

49

Thanks for the kind words, Red. Look after yourself, your loved ones, and stay safe in the new year.

50

[QUOTE=RedFury]
Look, saoirse, with all due respect, I have no beef w/you and I apologize for coming back so harshly.

But see the reason we appear at odds is because we’re speaking and/or arguing about different things. For while you are on about the strict literal meaning of it all, that is not what I what am alluding to. I guess we can attribute said misunderstanding to my own inability to truly capture in writing what it is that I am on about. But that is why I pointed you towards both Mellivora’s and RickJay’s posts which I though captured the essence of my thoughts better than I possibly could. And due to said shortcomings now it’s 'luc and again, Mellivora, who have bettered moi* again. Not that difficult mind you.

Give them a read and see if we can come to the middle of the road. Or is that a fork instead? Up to you.

Take care.

*Did I get my French right this time? :wink:
[/QUOTE]

Oh fine. be reasonable. I’ll just go yell at my co-worker.

51

[QUOTE=Soarise]
Oh fine. be reasonable. I’ll just go yell at my co-worker.
[/QUOTE]

Isn’t that just the way things are? Just when you get a decent mad going, some asshole gets all reasonable! Can’t tell you how many times I’ve got up a good basket full of invective, all sharpened and honed, slice 'em to ribbons shit, get it all down and then on PREVIEW see “Gee, whiz, sorry, 'Luc, didn’t mean it…”

Then I got to mutter “Sure, no prob, Bob” through gritted teeth. Fuckin’ hippies!

52

Everytime I saw guys get killed (way back in the peactime military), it was because somebody fucked up. Turned his back on a helicopter, didn’t tag out the main breaker, got drunk in Tijuana and was murdered by persons unknown, etc.

After a while this became the ingrained concept, and was equally applicable when the Marines came back to the ship all shot up after “manuvers” in parts of the Phillipines where the rebels were getting too comfortable, or when some laughing asshole drove right past guards who had been issued no ammunition and blew up their barracks in Beruit, or when that gun turret blew up and they tried to scapegoat one of the victims as a killer queer.

Yep, “somebody fucked up” works for me. Sure, shit happens, but it doesnt’ have to. And I don’t think about it beyond that or else my heart would have continued to be as broken as it was the day I threw my uniform in the dumpster at the end of pier 31 in San Diego. I was just a young guy making his way in a world that’s sometimes ugly, sometimes beautiful. And so are you.

53

[QUOTE=saoirse]
Oh fine. be reasonable. I’ll just go yell at my co-worker.
[/QUOTE]

Naw, I can’t let that happen. Here, this ought to get you going again:

I wrong about OtakuLoki as well. He’s a better man than I and I hang my head in shame.

Alright then, let her rip!

Mellivora, don’t mention it. It is I who is thankful.

BTW, what say you lend me your brain for about a week? 'cause I wanna know what it’s like to be smart before I die.

Right. Off into the Calcutta-like traffic that is Santo Domingo for the Holidays to an X-party. If I get there by tomorrow morning I’ll be happy – hear they cook a killer breakfast though. Now, if that’s not fun, I don’t know what is.

54

Thank you, again, RedFury. I’m not sure I agree with you about which of us might be the better man - but I’m glad that we cleared up our misunderstanding.

I hope you enjoy your party!

For the “me, too” portion of this post, I’d like to add that I think that the best post in this thread is Elucidator’s.

55

[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
Dude, for all the insults I have hurled at you in the past, for all the differences in opinion we have had, for pretty much everything I have ever said to you in the past and most assuredly in the future, for pretty much everything at all, you have never been as close to the truth as you are with this statement. God bless you. For all of my pretense at intelligence, this is what I wish I had been able to say. Thank you.
[/QUOTE]
That was quite a touching response, Doors, and my holiday weekend will be better for my having read it.

Thank you, and Merry Christmas to you and Robin and Baby Doors.

ETA: By the way, that’s one year, thirty days fifteen hours and twelve minutes. I’ll email a mod and get him to change the thread title for you.

:smiley:

56

[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
Dude…what I wish I had been able to say. Thank you.
[/QUOTE]

Tried to come up with an interesting way to say this, but there doesn’t seem to be one.

You’re welcome.

57

Seems like we will both be hitting 20 years at about the same time (I didn’t bother doing the math). Don’t expect any rants from me.

58

Airman, I think I know what you’re going through. I honor your service to this great republic. And… a better day will come, perhaps sooner than you think. We’ve endured a civil war, two world wars, a great depression, a cold war, four simultaneous terrorist attacks, and yet we’ve come out stronger than ever. We have problems now, big problems, but things will change, they must, and you can help them change for better, in your own way and in your own time. Keep your chin up.

59

[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
I’m tired of my fellow servicemen dying.
[/QUOTE]

AD, I’ve always liked you, so don’t take this the wrong way.

Your fellow servicemen voted overwhelmingly for W. They got what they asked for (note that I don’t, and certainly won’t, say “what they deserved”.)

I’m about 90% certain that you also voted for him the second time around - so you got what you asked for.

60

[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright]
AD, I’ve always liked you, so don’t take this the wrong way.
[/quote]

What, me take something the wrong way? Not a chance.

Tell me about it. I was on Kwajalein when the 2004 election took place. Talk about the odd man out.

You, sir, are incorrect. I voted Democrat in that election. Much to my chagrin, the exit polls were incorrect. Were that I had been able to tell everyone that I had voted for the winner.

Oh, well, such is life.

.