When I was a kid, I got so frustrated when I played chess, because I forgot that, as I was devising ingenious stratagems to defeat my opponent, my opponent didn’t cooperate in their defeat: instead, they devised ingenious stratagems to defeat my ingenious stratagems.
Put yourself in the gold farmer’s position. What simple change to the transaction could you make to defeat this method of surveillance?
Daniel
Microsoft has the money and the power to make the hackers go away. The hackers are still there. Ergo, Microsoft either a) does not want them to go away, or b) does not want them to go away bad enough.
Sleep is for the weak. Try 35 hours.
No thank you. My nightmares are too interesting.
Daniel
I’m afraid I’m a bit slow.
I’m willing to accept that this is one of those “anyone can create an encryption scheme so clever that he cannot break it” kinds of things. Perhaps you could just tell me (over in the other thread?) what simple change could be made that would invalidate my method. Please do read the other thread. The short paragraph in this one is just a summary.
Invalid comparison. Microsoft does not have the resources to stop hackers.
It seems a lot more likely that Blizzard does have the power to stop gold farmers, since they control the entire system in which the transfers take place.
I don’t know; you’re asking the wrong person.
Yes, I am.
http://www.gov.ns.ca/JUST/regulations/regs/baregs.htm
Boxers
Qualification
127 A boxer must be qualified to perform as a boxer.
128 Boxers shall only be permitted to box with boxers of the same sex.
Rest periods
129 A mandatory rest period shall be imposed upon all boxers as follows:
(a) 30 days rest upon completing 10 or more rounds;
(b) 21 days rest upon completing 6-9 rounds;
(c) 14 days rest upon completing 1-5 rounds.
Costume
130 (1) A male boxer participating in a boxing match shall wear a costume approved by the Authority, which shall include
(a) trunks that reach at least mid-thigh;
(b) a foul-proof guard not extending above the waist line;
(c) athletic, non-slip footwear; and
(d) a mouth protector.
(2) A female boxer participating in a boxing match shall wear a costume approved by the Authority, which shall include
(a) a body shirt and shorts, and the boxer shall have 2 costumes of contrasting colours;
(b) a chest protector made specifically for the boxer;
(c) athletic, non-slip footwear; and
(d) a mouth protector.
(3) No leotards or other such costumes are permissible.
131 No jewellery shall be worn during a bout.
Hair
132 A boxer’s hair shall be safely secured in a manner so that it shall not interfere with the vision or safety of either boxer.
Facial hair
133 (1) No boxer with a beard of more than 2 days growth may participate in a boxing match without the Authority’s approval.
(2) A boxer with a moustache is permitted to participate in a boxing match provided that it is not considered possible for the moustache to cause a cut or injury to the opponent.
Petroleum jelly
134 The discretional use of petroleum jelly is permitted around the eyes, bridge of the nose and behind the ears, but no grease or other substance is permitted on the body, arms or legs of a boxer during a boxing match.
Boxer reported ill
135 A boxer who is reported ill may be placed upon the “Ill and Unavailable” list and shall not be reinstated until the boxer has been examined and approved by a Medical Advisor, and until the boxer either fulfills all commitments pending at the time of the suspension or is released from them by the promoter.
Arrival of boxer in city or town
136 (1) A boxer participating in a championship boxing match shall arrive in the city or town where the boxing match is to take place
(a) for a world title fight, not less than 5 days;
(b) for a Canadian title fight, not less than 3 days; and
(c) for a Maritime title fight, not less than 2 days
before the advertised commencement of the boxing match.
(2) For all boxing matches other than championship boxing matches, boxers shall be in the city or town where the boxing match is to take place not less than 48 hours before the advertised commencement of the boxing match unless otherwise directed by the Authority.
Coaches have been prohibited from wearing suits since 1993. Apparently, it has something to do with an NFL contract with Reebok.
Right. But the question isn’t whether he’s violating NFL’s rules, or whether the NFL is likely to discipline him, it’s whether he’s cheating.
Why does a boxer have to be 19, rather than 18? Why does he have to arrive in town 48 hours before a fight? Why does he have to shave at least 2 days before the fight starts? Why does he have to wear trunks that reach mid-thigh? Why does a female fighter have to have “2 costumes of contrasting colours”?
I don’t know.
But suppose a fighter violates one of these rules - or even all of them. Is he cheating?
The comparison is a bit exaggerated, but it IS the same kind of argument that I constantly hear from MAC and LINUX users. The bottom line is that Microsoft has perfect information about their code (which the public does not). Similarly, Blizzard has perfect information about the transactions (which the public does not). Yet, hackers still find bugs in Microsoft’s code, and Gold Farmers still find more clever ways to hide their transactions among legitimate ones.
What you’re talking about is Datamining/Pattern Recognition. The problem is extremely difficult. I don’t want to re-itterate what I posted in your other thread, but essentially:
Patterns are not simply large money transfers. The Gold Farmers are smart enough to make transfers that, at least on the surface, can pass as potentially legitimate game actions.
When classifying, you have TWO types of errors. First, there are ones where you mis-classify legit players as Gold Farmers, which is VERY bad for business, and thus probably minimized which results in more of the second type. You can also mis-classify Gold Farmers as legit players.
Considering that my thesis will involve Datamining/Pattern Recognition, and having a good idea of just how complex this problem is, I can assure you, that you absolutely WILL have the second type of error.
Gold Farmers and their strategies are NOT static. New items are constantly coming out, so they adjust to conpensate for those. Also, when Blizzard starts doing a better job of cracking down on them, do you REALLY think they’d keep the same pattern for their transactions?
Of course he’s cheating if he boxes at a younger age. Of course he’s cheating if he doesn’t arrive in town 48 hours in advance of a fight, or doesn’t shave, or doesn’t wear correct trunks. Those are the rules of the game he’s signed up to play, and people don’t make rules for no reason. If he’s breaking the rules, then he’s competing on an unfair playing field against the others who obey the rules.
If you don’t like the game, you may choose to play another game or to petition for a change to the rules. You may NOT agree to the rules, knowing that you plan on breaking them for personal gain.
Daniel
No.
First you said, “The definition of cheating is intentionally breaking the rules, period.”
Then you said, “Cheating involves intentionally breaking the rules of a game in a way that devalues the game for others who are directly or indirectly involved in the game and that benefits the person intentionally breaking the rules of the game.”
Both are poor definitions of cheating, and both are designed specifically to serve the purposes of the arguments you’re making in this thread.
As for the age, it’s no different than why we have to be 18 to vote. It’s entirely possible that a particular 16-year-old is well informed and mature enough to vote, while a 22-year-old can’t even tell you who the Vice President is, yet the more deserving one can’t vote, and the less deserving one can. As for boxing, why would 18 be any more legitimate than 19? Either age is completely arbitrary.
Boxers need to arrive 48 hours for specific pre-fight activities, including promotions, weigh-in, etc. Besides, it’s in the fighter’s best interest so he can be prepared.
Shaving is for safety reasons. A certain length of stubble could more easily “grab” the glove and result in more cuts and tears in the skin.
There needs to be SOME degree of regulation on the uniform, otherwise you get people wearing things just for attention. If a fighter looks bad, it will reflect on the sport. It’s no different than your job having a dress code. Is there necessarily an “advantage” to wearing a collared shirt if you’re a telemarketer? I doubt it, but it maintains a certain level of dignity and professionalism.
It is important to have two costumes of contrasting collar, because fighters are distinguished by their trunks. It would be like watching a football game between any pair of the Redskins, Chiefs, 49ers, or Bucs and they both decide to wear their white or colored uniforms… it would be VERY difficult for the Refs (and especially the players) to differentiate.
Now, some of my justifications may not be correct, but just because a rule seems to be arbitrary and you can’t come up with a good reason for it, doesn’t mean there isn’t.
Either way, violating some of those rules may not bestow an advantage on oneself or a disadvantage on the other, but you also have issues like reputation, sportsmanship, safety, etc. that are inherent in rules. For instance, it may not be “cheating” to not shave properly for a fight… but, since it’s probably a safety reason, it would be dumb not to follow it, nonetheless.
Interesting rules for boxers. Most of those listed appear to be for safety, but a few that are clearly intended to prevent cheating.
I will admit that there is a distinction between “merely” breaking the rules and actual cheating; the latter is a subset of the former. That does not change my position on the argument at hand.
Breaking the rules, even if you’re not cheating, is still subject to disciplinary action. If Blizzard states that I cannot harrass another character, they can ban me if they catch me harrassing someone. Calling someone names doesn’t directly give me an advantage, and may even piss people off to the point where I’m being hunted down in PvP combat. Even though it’s not cheating, I could still get banned for that because Blizzard said so. So that argument doesn’t help gold farmers.
Wearing a suit or too-short boxers is a bad analogy for giving away in-game resources for out-of-game cash. You’re looking past the analogy provided earlier of giving away the fight in boxing for out-of-game cash. Both are most certainly cheating in that by breaking the rules, you’ll get more money than if you played by them, thus the advantage requirement you need to qualify as cheating.
I bolded the relevant definitions below:
CHEATING:
intransitive verb
1 a : **to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly ** <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
2 : to be sexually unfaithful – usually used with on <was cheating on his wife>
3 : to position oneself defensively near a particular area in anticipation of a play in that area <the shortstop was cheating toward second base>
Though they’re slightly different flavors, it looks to me like it’s simply breaking the rules. Dictionary.com implies willfulness, while Merriam-Webster implies willfulness in the dishonesty as well.
I don’t think anyone can question that Gold Farming is, at least willful, and almost certainly dishonest.
In what way is a suited coach creating an unfair playing field? Was it unfair before the NFL signed its deal with Reebok, or only afterward?
How does wearing shorts of the wrong length give a fighter an advantage?
What advantage does an 18 year old boxer enjoy against an 19 year old fighter?
Oh, for pity’s sake. The relevant dictionary definition is:
That’s even more general than my first one. Under synonyms, cheating is distinguished from similar words as follows:
That’s very similar to what I said the second time.
Of course, American Heritage defines cheat as folllows:
Which is almost exactly what I said the first time.
These are not crazy definitions that I invented to serve my argument. These are how the word is used. You, not I, are the one who is redefining the word in a peculiar manner to make a Quixotic argument.
Daniel
I don’t need to know the rationale behind the rules; I just need to know what the rules are. Breaking the rules intentionally=cheating, and it’s really that simple.
Daniel
Are you contending that Gold Farming is not against the rules for good reasons? Several people have listed several reasons of how it negatively affects game play for people who follow the rules.
Are you contending that it is okay to break a rule if you can’t come up with a good reason to follow it?
IOW, this whole argument is a Red Herring.
Breaking the rules is necessary, but not sufficient.
A while ago there was an Olympics skier who lost his medal because he got stoned before the event. Maybe he ‘deserved’ it, maybe not.
Either way, he wasn’t cheating. Not unless you think being stoned makes you a better skier (which you’d have to be stoned to think).
It’s quite simple, the NFL is a FOR PROFIT business. Not every rule has to be for safety, fairness, sportsmanship. They want to maximize revenue, and if they don’t do it through contracts like that, they’ll do it by upping TV contracts, or other things that could more negatively affect us, the consumer.
For the same reason, I imagine Blizzard would be quite upset if you hacked your account so you didn’t have to pay. Sure, it’s not affecting anyone else’s game play, but Blizzard is a FOR PROFIT bussiness.
Either way, if you want to use their goods and participate in their services, you have to play by their rules. If you don’t like them, bring your business elsewhere.
Which is what I said in different words, yes.