[QUOTE=LinusK]
Either way, he wasn’t cheating. Not unless you think being stoned makes you a better skier (which you’d have to be stoned to think).
[/QUOTE]
No, nor do you have to be stoned to think that all the dictionaries have somehow missed a vital part of the definition of cheating that you’ve picked up on. Just a bit stubborn :).
Daniel
[QUOTE=LinusK]
Breaking the rules is necessary, but not sufficient.
A while ago there was an Olympics skier who lost his medal because he got stoned before the event. Maybe he ‘deserved’ it, maybe not.
Either way, he wasn’t cheating. Not unless you think being stoned makes you a better skier (which you’d have to be stoned to think).
[/QUOTE]
You’re right, getting stoned probably didn’t make him a better skier, but what it DOES do is marginalize the sport and the the Olympics. IMO, one of the most important aspects of what draws fans to the Olympics is it’s “purity”. The athletes become immediate role models, and the IOC doesn’t want to have those sorts of people representing the Olympics.
It’s no different than when the NFL bans people for non-performance enhancing drug use. If the idea that these role models are bad ones became a concensus, the NFL would lose fans. Maintaining an image is invaluable to a sports league, meet, competition, etc.
There are a lot of mistaken assumptions in this thread. First of all its not in any way against the rules or the EULA to farm gold. Blizzard can’t ban “gold farmers” because they are doing absolutely nothing wrong. Every single player gold farms at one point or another so they can’t even consider making it illegal. A lot of gold farmers use “bots” to automate the process of farming, this are the people they go after. The guys sitting at a computer for 12 hours a day are playing entirely by the rules, any regular player could be doing the same thing if they so wished so banning anyone for it would never work.
Secondly the guys farming are not the ones selling the gold, this is another reason why they can’t really do anything about it. Theres really no way to prove a gold transfer is legit or not since the real money transaction happens outside the game but in the end all that happens is one person sends gold to another person and theres really no way to know why that was done.
I just don’t think theres any way Blizzard or anyone else can stop gold farming or selling without impossing some draconian rules that would inconvenience their regular players a whole lot more than the gold farming does. Banning people who play too much? capping the amount of gold one person can earn? disallowing sending gold to other players? it might stop the gold farmers but it would cause complete and total outrage among the player base. The only way i can see a company stopping the underground gold selling bussiness is to set up their own gold for money system, which was already done by everquest 2 i believe.
[QUOTE=LinusK]
Both are poor definitions of cheating, and both are designed specifically to serve the purposes of the arguments you’re making in this thread.
[/QUOTE]
“You’re only defining the word that way because it supports your argument for the definition of cheating!”
Seriously, this is supposed to be a valid criticism of LHoD’s argument?
You’re right, DigitalC, the farmers are not necessarily the sellers. I realize I’ve been equating the two throughout this thread. I chose to continue doing so because the farmers listed in the original NYT article are still part of the black market industry and are assisting the sellers.
[QUOTE=DigitalC]
There are a lot of mistaken assumptions in this thread. First of all its not in any way against the rules or the EULA to farm gold.
[/QUOTE]
Farming gold, for the purposes of this discussion, refers to gathering gold for the purposes of selling it for real-world cash. That sale for RW cash violates the EULA.
Edit: Terms of Use and EULA
From ToU:
Daniel
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness]
Farming gold, for the purposes of this discussion, refers to gathering gold for the purposes of selling it for real-world cash. That sale for RW cash violates the EULA.
Edit: Terms of Use and EULA
Daniel
[/QUOTE]
But farming gold is not illegal and the guys farming it aren’t the ones selling it.
[QUOTE=DigitalC]
There are a lot of mistaken assumptions in this thread. First of all its not in any way against the rules or the EULA to farm gold. Blizzard can’t ban “gold farmers” because they are doing absolutely nothing wrong. Every single player gold farms at one point or another so they can’t even consider making it illegal. A lot of gold farmers use “bots” to automate the process of farming, this are the people they go after. The guys sitting at a computer for 12 hours a day are playing entirely by the rules, any regular player could be doing the same thing if they so wished so banning anyone for it would never work.
[/QUOTE]
FTR, there isn’t anything against farming gold. However, when we’ve been saying “Gold Farmers”, we’ve been specifically refering to the concept of earning lots of gold to sell it for real money. If someone has no life and wants to spend 12 hours a day farming gold just to horde it… fine. The moment he starts making a real world profit from it, he IS violating the EULA.
I think you’re over-simplifying the problem. There are less draconian ways to reduce the problem, but you won’t get rid of it without being draconian. As I’ve stated here, and in the other thread, you cannot judge a Gold Farmer by a single attribute, because they don’t all farm and don’t all distribute their gold in the same way. To catch them, you have to use a much larger number of attributes, and then you’re getting into the realm of Datamining and Pattern Recognition, which is a whole different beast.
Either way, I imagine that a well developed and maintained system designed to catch Gold Farmers would probably get +95% of them, and considering that seems to correlate to my experience, I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s precisely how they’re approaching the problem.
[QUOTE=DigitalC]
But farming gold is not illegal and the guys farming it aren’t the ones selling it.
[/QUOTE]
They are presumably giving the money to their boss in exchange for a paycheck–in other words, they are selling “items for ‘real’ money or otherwise exchange items for value outside of the Game.”
Daniel
[QUOTE=DigitalC]
But farming gold is not illegal and the guys farming it aren’t the ones selling it.
[/QUOTE]
Well, according to the article they are selling it to those who sell it direct to players. The act of farming gold is not in itself against the rules, but selling it is, and in order to get the money to those who sell it to players, the farmers have to sell it to them. They’re just a link in a chain.
[QUOTE=DigitalC]
But farming gold is not illegal and the guys farming it aren’t the ones selling it.
[/QUOTE]
Try rereading the first sentence you quoted.
[QUOTE=Bosstone]
You’re right, DigitalC, the farmers are not necessarily the sellers. I realize I’ve been equating the two throughout this thread. I chose to continue doing so because the farmers listed in the original NYT article are still part of the black market industry and are assisting the sellers.
[/QUOTE]
The farmers are sellers, though. They don’t sell directly to other players, just to whoever runs the particular gold-farming operation that employs them. But they’re still gathering gold in-game, in exchange for real-world money.
I could be wrong, here, but I’ve only heard the term “farm” used to describe people who sell gold or other items for real-world money. When legitimate players do this, it’s usually called “grinding.” But I may not have fully grasped the context in which the terms are used, or there may be some variation by region/game/server/whatever.
[QUOTE=Miller]
Is there any chance you could restate this in a more coherent manner?
[/QUOTE]
Not really. You know, some other people seem to be understanding me fairly well. I don’t know what more I can do here. It’s not a reading comprehension thread, and so I guess we’re both frustrated. You do seem to be getting the gist of what I’m saying at various times and/or when it suits you to make a more incisive point, so I think now I’ll just apologize for your confusion and leave it at that. Chalk it up in your win column if it makes you happy.
[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
First of all, the reason I said “Western” was simply because I’m uneducated about how “Eastern” developers are doing in China. If you’re going to draw a comparison, then I expect you can provide cites?
[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
Nice Strawman there.
[/QUOTE]
[/quote]
You said it, mang.
[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
What exactly would be a significant share of the market in China? Sure, they have considerably more people that the US, but that doesn’t mean the size of the market grows comparatively. What percentage of Chinese citizens have access to the internet? How many of them have the disposable income and time to spend playing an MMORPG?
[/QUOte]
Please read carefully. I’ve been very clear that this is long-term concern and not about today’s Chinese market. How many have it today is only tangential to what I’ve been saying.
[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
Yes, China is going to be a major player inthe gaming market in the future. But unless you can back up this “sliver” of the market number with hard numbers, you’re just spewing hot air.
[/QUOTE]
I have to cite the approximately two billion people in China? For that matter, how do we even know there IS a China!? Cite that there is a China, please. Cite also that there are people living there, and that they farm gold, and that Marco Polo wasn’t just blowing hot air.
[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
Okay, you’re saying it does, that’s wonderful, I get that, but that doesn’t make you right. Your argument is based on premises that you have yet to back up and I’m not going to do your legwork for you.
[/QUOTE]
Ok, I guess I didn’t do my legwork because I didn’t break into the Blizzard offices and present their internal memos. Sorry. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
What you’re NOT addressing are the reprocussions of people doing this. When people buy gold, it causes inflation, which means for those of us who earn money without buying it have to work harder and longer to get the money we need to purchase certain items. Worse, many of these farmers gain money by camping specific spawn points for rare resources or rare monsters. This means that it’s harder for people playing legitimately to get those resources and the items dropped by those rare monsters.
An excellent example was prior to the expansion when I needed Felcloth to make Mooncloth so I could make some powerful end-game items. The problem is, it only drops off of specific enemies in a few areas. Pretty much whenever I would go there to hunt the Felcloth, there were invariably the same characters there. They ALWAYS used the same patterns, NEVER responded to tells (meaning, they weren’t even human players), and it made it much more time consuming to hunt Felcloth because I was constantly stuck waiting for enemies to spawn and had to get my hit on it before they could steal it. It got to the point where it was easier to go earn gold some other way and buy it at the auction house. So now, I’m stuck spending my money on a market that the farmers pretty much have cornered and have deliberately inflated the price… so they can take the gold that I just spent on the Felcloth and sell it.
So here was my choice… frustratingly hunt Felcloth, and have it take at least twice as long as it should, were there not so many bots around. Or, earn money some other way, spend it on the Felcloth, and contribute to server inflation. Even worse, because the gold farmers already know all the good places to earn some nice money, that even made the second option rather frustrating. Can you SEE how it makes the game less enjoyable?
[/QUOTE]
I see someone who is far too invested in that game to think about it objectively, and someone who effectively proves beyond a doubt that Blizzard could get away just about anything. Double-you-tee-eff on the mooncloth, chief.
[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
I have, in fact, known players who have cancelled their accounts, or at least changed servers, because inflation and farming got too bad.
[/QUOTE]
Cite?! Just kidding, I don’t need an affidavit from Sir Loin, Formerly of the Dwarf Kingdom of Asswald. Your point would have economic merit if there were thousands of people who had quit with gold farmers being the primary reason. Otherwise one or two people getting fed up or not playing at all doesn’t matter financially, because for every one of those there are hundreds of farmers and thousands of addicts who will continue to pay. You haven’t shown net economic loss on Blizzard’s part.
[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
You’re missing the point. Stopping gold-farming is just like upping security to prevent hackers.
[/QUOTE]
No it isn’t. I’ve been over this. Prevent Asian access to NA/AUS/Euro servers and gold farming is all but done. Blizzard knows this, and doesn’t do it. Some nice person pointed out that Hong Kong ex-pats and whatnot will be sad because they can’t play with their friends, but if gold farming is the scourge you seem to think it is, wouldn’t such a move be for the greater good? And yet Blizzard doesn’t do this.
[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
If Gold Farming gets out of control, players quit playing, and gold farming becomes less possible, so they stop making new accounts, and Blizzard loses money.
[/QUOTE]
What are you even talking about? Out of control gold farming? That Blizzard has gold farming in their control is my whole freaking point. Hello?
[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
Thus, if a regular player pays the same amount per month, but is only playing 20% of the time (over 33 hours a week, which I’m sure is generously high for an average), then for Blizzard JUST to break even, the Gold Farmers have to recreate their account at least 5 times (probably more like 10-15), then when you take into account the players it costs them because of the increased price of the service, and players quitting or not even starting because of the side effects of the Gold Farming, the cost grows even higher.
[/QUOTE]
Now by your own definition, you’re the one blowing hot air. Cite for these numbers? Any of them? Cite for Blizzard’s cost per account? Follow it all with a cite showing that pro gold farmers don’t buy more than five accounts in WoW, and you’ll actually be on your way to supporting the ridiculous proposition that Blizzard is running a net loss on gold farmers. Or better yet, stop demanding cites in a debate that doesn’t have available citations for either side.
Nothing you’ve said convinces me that Blizzard, out of the goodness of their little hearts, isn’t tolerating a certain degree of gold farming in exchange for the money and future market penetration. They’d be walking away from a pile of money why? Because they said they were? Maybe good enough for you, but not me, and definitely not while gold farming continues at a level that continues to be profitable for Blizzard.
Which brings me to step 2 and the other half of this thread, which is why breaking the EULA vis a vis gold farming or buying isn’t cheating. Because if Blizzard has been turning a blind eye to the farmers, it arguably constitutes a breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing. AKA, they cheated first.
[QUOTE=Miller]
I could be wrong, here, but I’ve only heard the term “farm” used to describe people who sell gold or other items for real-world money. When legitimate players do this, it’s usually called “grinding.” But I may not have fully grasped the context in which the terms are used, or there may be some variation by region/game/server/whatever.
[/QUOTE]
It probably does depend on the game. I’m not familiar with WoW’s use, but in Guild Wars I’ve frequently referred to going out and farming crafting materials, because they drop off monsters and you have to kill quite a lot to get them. Same deal in FFXI.
In the context of this discussion, it means collecting for the purposes of selling, but that connotation need not be there.
Yeah, I’ve definitely heard people talk about farming in a game-legal sense (sample conversation:
That’s pretty clearly not what’s in discussion here, though.
Daniel
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness]
They are presumably giving the money to their boss in exchange for a paycheck–in other words, they are selling “items for ‘real’ money or otherwise exchange items for value outside of the Game.”
[/QUOTE]
Goddammit, Daniel, knock that off!
[QUOTE=Miller]
Goddammit, Daniel, knock that off!
[/QUOTE]
Do you ever wonder if we have the same fingerprints?
:creepy look
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness]
Do you ever wonder if we have the same fingerprints?
:creepy look
[/QUOTE]
If you’re the Left Hand, then Miller must be…
:eek:
Everytime Blizzard has tried to do something to mitigate the problem of gold farming it has caused the sellers to become more annoying to the regular player. Used to be gold farming and selling was something done in the background that not everyone was even aware off. If someone wanted to buy gold they simply went to Ebay and bought whatever they wanted, sure it hurt the economy but to most players it was simply not an issue they cared or knew much about.
Then they banned ebay sales so the gold sellers had make their own websites, which they started advertising by sending in game emails to players. You’d get maybe one or two of them a week, annoying yeah but not terribly so. Then Blizzard did something to stop the in game emails from throwaway accounts, or to limit the amount they could send at one time. The gold sellers then standing making throw away level 1 characters on trial accounts and mass spamming advertising their gold selling sites. This became EXTREMELY annoying, regular players who before hardly paid any attention to the whole gold buying issue were now getting spammed with offers at a rate that became intorelable.
On the last patch a few weeks ago a lot of contermeasures to deal with the problem went in. You can report spammers to get them banned faster, which puts them automatically on your “ignore” list, and theres some other technical things that prevents them from sending mass spam messages that i didn’t quite understand, but have apparently worked quite well. The problem is now the spammers are sending group invites rather than just messages, to anyone playing wow it will be obvious that getting spammed with group invites is a whole more annoying than simple messages. I am dreading to think what will happen when they find a way to stop those.
To all of you who think Blizzard can simply stop the gold sellers think again. They took what was a minor annoyance and turned it into a huge pain in the ass for their regular customers. I’m not blaming Blizzard for what the spammers are doing, im just trying to point out its simply laughable to think they can stop them when they can’t even stop their spam advertisenments in their own game.
[QUOTE=DigitalC]
On the last patch a few weeks ago a lot of contermeasures to deal with the problem went in. You can report spammers to get them banned faster, which puts them automatically on your “ignore” list, and theres some other technical things that prevents them from sending mass spam messages that i didn’t quite understand, but have apparently worked quite well. The problem is now the spammers are sending group invites rather than just messages, to anyone playing wow it will be obvious that getting spammed with group invites is a whole more annoying than simple messages. I am dreading to think what will happen when they find a way to stop those.
[/QUOTE]
I was wondering why I got two group invites from a level 1 dude in Northshire…