Open Letter to Idiot Private Motorcycle Sellers

The BBQ Pit
1

Dear Idiot Private Motorcycle Sellers,
Please let me introduce myself. My name is InLucemEdita and I’m in the market to purchase a used motorcycle. I’ve been reading your ads on Craigslist, Ebay, and Cycletrader. I am over 40 years old, I have been riding motorcycles for about 15 years, and - while I don’t pretend to be an absolute expert on every make, model, and option - I do have access to the common research tools that one could consult in the modern world if they wanted information regarding the options and resale values of motorcycles.

Moreover, I have money with which to buy a motorcycle. I might be able to buy your motorcycle for cash, and if not, the bank has already approved me for a loan well in excess of the price of your motorcycle. I could have a check from them in a matter of hours. If I went to a dealer (which I am now considering due to your collective assholery) I could put a new bike on a credit card in a matter of minutes.

I am not “thinking about” buying a motorcycle. I am not “just looking”. I am a willing buyer. You should want me to be checking out your bike.

Let me comment first on your fucked up classified ads. When you say “No test rides”, “No joy riders”, or “Test rides will cost you $XXXX” (where $XXXX = your outrageous asking price) I immediately stop looking at your ad. Why in the world would I spend many thousands of dollars on a bike that I can’t ride? I should just take your word for it that it runs smooth as silk at highway speeds? I think not. In my mind “No test rides” translates immediately to “I don’t want to sell you this bike.” When you write “No tire kickers” that translates to “Not only do I not want to sell you my bike, I don’t even want you to come look at it.” To those of you who write these things, thanks for making my decision a little easier by immediately eliminating your bikes from consideration.

Among the remaining contenders for my money, many of you have listed asking prices in your ads that are far in excess of any reasonable valuation of your motorcycle. Your asking prices average about 20% over the full retail value for your bike listed by Nada and Kelly Blue Book.

As those references state, the retail value is what one should expect A DEALER would ask for the bike, although the selling price would likely be lower. This price is higher than a private party price since the dealer is expected to have re-conditioned the bike and performed all necessary maintenance and safety checks on the bike.

You are NOT a dealer. I will not assume that you have performed all necessary maintenance on the bike, and if you have I won’t assume that you have done it correctly. You should not even be asking full retail price let alone 20% over that price.

When I make you an offer that is between the full retail price and the trade-in value, that is NOT a “low-ball” offer, and I am insulted by that characterization. That is a reasonable offer that only feels low to you since you are asking a fantasy price that will only be paid by someone who is entirely ignorant of the value of the bike.

The fact that you state you have had some maintenance performed (and list how much you paid for that maintenance) just prior to putting it up for sale does NOT raise the intrinsic value of the bike. The price guides presume the bike has been maintained properly when computing the resale value.

So…O.K…you’re allowed to ask what you want and maybe you’ll get some sucker to pay that price if they fall in love with the bike. If your bike looks like one I might like I am still willing to take a look and potentially start the negotiation process with you.

In these cases, as you know, I have contacted you by email and politely expressed my interest in your bike, and my desire to set an appointment at a time of your convenience over the weekend. I have asked you at the same time to please send the address of the location of the bike so I can plan my trip to see it.

Can you please explain why you never want to send me the address and a meeting time? Instead you want to talk by phone as if you are some dainty young girl afraid to meet a blind date. You have all of my contact information in my email including my job title, my office phone number, my return email address (of course), and my web page address. You could check me out in any number of ways to determine some idea of my potential for buying your bike.

But instead you email me back and want me to call you, while refraining from answering any of my questions which would lead directly to my seeing and potentially buying your bike. What the fuck is that? I don’t particularly want to chit-chat, but I call you back anyway as you’ve requested, and without fail I get your voicemail. Of course I leave a message identifying myself and again requesting that you send me the address and appointment time via email so that I can look up the address on mapquest and print out directions.

Christ, I am trying to make this fucking easy…and you are just making it more difficult for me to buy the bike you have for sale.

Of course, you then return my call while I am in a meeting and decide to leave a voice message stating 1) that any time over the weekend is OK, 2) the greater region the bike is in, and 3) that I should call you back to get the address.

Fuck you. I’m not calling you back again to get an address that you’ve had several opportunities to give me. Who are you Dick Fucking Cheney in an undisclosed location?

When I don’t call for several days you finally get the picture that I’m not playing your hard-to-get game any more so you leave the address on the voice mail. Of course, I then have to listen to your message three times to transcribe your address from the message instead of just cutting and pasting into Mapquest, but at least you finally coughed it up. NOTE: This no-address, phone tag scenario has happened twice nearly identically. What is the purpose of this?

So the moment finally arrives when I am driving to your address 45 miles from my home. When I arrive we approach the bike and I can’t help but notice the extensive damage to the left side of the bike (or the big oil stain on the ground under the bike) that you failed to mention in your ad.

Fuck you sideways with a hedge-trimmer.

You don’t think obvious damage might be an important element to include in your description? You don’t think hemorrhaging oil hints that some maintenance might need to be done to the bike?

And you still have the balls to ask 20% OVER the full retail price for this piece of shit? Are you fucking kidding me?

Low-ball offer?!! How about I offer you a kick in your low balls?

You strung me along over email, then dragged me an hour’s drive away to see a bike that you totally misrepresented? You slimy little bitch.

Look you bastards…I can wait…this bike is a luxury item for me.

Winter’s coming, and your kids need Christmas presents and your mortgage needs to be paid. When you are ready to negotiate fairly I’ll be here…put out a fair ad with a fair asking price and we’ll talk.

Until then enjoy your depreciating asset in the garage.

Sincerely,
InLucemEdita

2

A few things. I’ve worked fo bike shops, as a mechanic, and I bought and sold motorcycles for years as a sideline, and my personal bikes.

!: NOBODY i know will let you test ride a bike. Not without at least putting down a deposit of the full value. People Pretend to know how to ride, and go out test riding bikes on the weekend for sport. Often they DONT have the money to buy, and don’t know what they are doing. If that person lays it down, you now have a screwed up bike and possibly a lawsuit. Get over it. If you have to test ride it, be prepared to pay a deposit unless it’s a beater, or buy from a dealer that has insurance for that sort of thing.

2: Having sold a lot of bikes you get no end of tire kickers. People who are dreaming about buying a bike and want to play the roll. It’s worse than cars. After spending hours showing a bike to people who then tell you they may have the money in 6 months after thier “settlement” comes in, you start putting shit in the ad about no tire kickers.

3: Blue book value is a lose guide. I’ve seen the blue book list a 70’s harley for 3 grand when the going street rate was 7 or 8. Blue book on motorcycles is unreliable as hell. If you think Dealers all really service the bikes they sell used rather than just change the oil and give it a good wash you are mistaken. I’d rather buy a bike from an individual and I would pay more for it after I checked it out. Dealers will take an abused repo bike and shine it up. I can tell by talking to a private seller if he loved the bike and cared for it.

4: Motorcycles get stolen off of ads all the time. So people selling them want to hear a voice on the phone and have a caller ID record in case something happens. I never give out the address till the guy is on his way.

They definately shouldn’t misrepresent the condition…If a buyer is traveling that far I send them pictures and describe every thing possible that they might take issue with.

3

bdrg I appreciate your thoughts and experience and agree with some though not all.

I have a smaller sample than you, but of the 4 bikes I’ve seen in the past 3 weeks I test drove two, and declined to drive the other two even though the seller was prepared to allow me to drive it (I declined because I could tell by looking at the bike that I wasn’t going to buy). You are also open to a lawsuit if you are selling a car and someone wrecks it, but almost nobody buys a car without a test drive, and a seller rarely declines one. And NO ONE asks for a deposit. Give me a break. If the seller doesn’t want to allow test drives they should sell the bike to dealer who won’t require a test drive. Or the seller should “Get over it.”

bdgr do YOU buy bikes without riding them first?

That’s a real bitch…you actually have to show the bike to people who decide not to buy? Might as well just be rude in advance, that will really bring in the buyers.

It’s funny…everyone always quotes blue book when they want to use the figures, then craps on it when they want to either get more or spend less. I’ve been watching actual sale prices (and even follow-up emailed a few to get some final sale prices) so I feel sure that the blue book values are close to market for this bike.

I also prefer buying cars and bikes from private individuals (although this experience has been a bit more frustrating than most…thus the pit thread) for reasons you mention and others. However, I am not stating what dealers actually do, I was stating what the blue book says are prices based on reconditioned bikes. You can believe what you like about what your dealer has done or not done.

Like I wrote, these guys had all of my business contact information, a phone message from me identifying myself, and my cell number in their cell phones from my incoming call. Do I need to submit a fucking urine sample to get the address?

We are in agreement here, but they definitely do misrepresent the condition.

Good luck to you in your future sales.

Any thoughts on the Triumph Sprint ST?

4

I’ll put it this way. Most experianced motorcycle guys…at least around here…won’t do it. If they won’t, I wouldn’t take offense, I would just assume that means they are more experianced and may have taken better care of the bike.

Cars don’t slip down in gravel, and riding a bike is more specialized. I’ve sold dozens of bikes, and only allowed a test drive to people I knew well. One of them, a very experianced motorcyclist, slipped on gravel going around a low speed turn on a 73 bonneville. He bought it, even though he didn’t want it, because he knew that is the rule. Most newbies don’t know that. Trust me, in most places at least the buyers know they cant test drive and it doesnt hurt our market. I’ve sold every bike i’ve ever tried to sell and got what I wanted for it.

Yep. every single one of them, and I’ve owned too many to list. I would consider it an insult to ask the seller to let me ride it, it’s considered rude.

I listen to it run, I look it over carefully…I ask the seller questions about how it shifts runs and rides. But I do NOT test ride.

It’s not rude to say no tire kickers. If you are a serious buyer, you are not a tire kicker.

And it is a real bitch. If I have to take off work, put aside things I need to do for someone who is not serious then it costs me time and money. Most people understand this and don’t get offended. The ones that do are too uptight to have to deal with. Life is too short and there are plenty of buyers.

Well, that is true on some bikes. Rather than quote bluebook simply say to the seller I’ve looked at a few bikes in this condition going for x…would you be willing to take x? If you break out the blue book you look like a newbie.

Me? I don’t have a dealer. I worked as mechanic for a few good and not so good ones, and I worked with a lot of mechanics who have moved around. some shops do complete maintenance but that doesn’t matter if it hasn’t been maintained all along. You can tell more about a bike that hasn’t been steam cleaned and prettied up than one that has. I’d rather the seller not have just done an oil change, for instance…especially since thats the first thing I’m going to do myself regardless.

If I get a call from someone saying they are coming over today to look, I watch for them. If they don’t show up, then I know that I could be being scammed and I make extra sure I keep the bike out of sight and locked up for the next few days. If I get a call and the person says they are coming a week from tuesday, and I tell them today then for a week there is someone that knows I have a bike that I’m not riding at my address and I have to worry about it. So I tell them the day they are coming out. Most people understand this, and I certainly understand it when I am going to look at a car, bike or whatever.

I haven’t met an hinkley Triumph I didn’t like. one of my 59’er frineds had and loved it. It’s not my personal taste, but a good bike from all accounts. I wan’t another Guzzi myself, but I’m a glutton for punishment.

5

How does this work? Couldn’t a would be bike thief just drive around and spot any number of bikes?

6

Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree on most of these points.

You and I wouldn’t ever do business, but that’s OK, there are plenty of bikes out there.

Enjoy.

7

depends on the bike.

Say I’ve got a yakasuki 9000, and I lay it down destroying the body work, bending the forks, etc. And say I’m a scumbag bike thief.

I can look through craigslist for a yakazuki 9000 that matches my year bike. I call the guy up, get directions and tell him I’ll be by a week from tuesday.

Then I start driving by with a couple of my scumbag friends waiting for the guy to leave it out front unattended. Then I stop, we throw it in the back of a pickup and throw a tarp over it, and drive home. Within a hour I have all the parts to fix my bike up, plus spares, and I go dump the frame and cases off a bridge that night (there is a spot in fort worth that probably has an artificial reef of motorcycle frames by now if the rumors are true…)

Most bikes are stolen for their parts, and often the thief is looking for something pretty specific. Rather than drive around all day looking, you can narrow your hunting grounds down.

8

Makes sense, thanks.

9

I’ve never heard of someone riding a private bike they want to buy. What’s keeping them from just taking off with it? I’ve heard enough stories about it, and not friend of a friend either. The difference with a car is that someone else will go along with you, at least whenever I’ve bought a car that’s what they’ve done.

When I sold my first bike I had a couple of people come over, but no one wanted to test ride it. I’m almost positive I wouldn’t have let them. Good thing it was a starter bike as I got people coming to look at it who didn’t have a license.

10

I thought you were going to be complaining about the people on Craigslist who want to sell a motorcycle but don’t think they need to put a picture up. What, you think I’m looking at them because they’re sensible?

11

When I sold my bike the buyer really wanted to test ride it but he knew that wasn’t normally accepted so he came prepared. He gave me his insurance card and left his BMW 525i along with it’s registration card and keys inside my garage. Even then he had his doubts that I would let him test it but I did.

And you really can’t fault someone for over pricing their bike. If they find a buyer then more power to them, the bike was priced correctly for someone out there.
If it’s really overpriced then no one will buy it and the guy either keeps it or lowers the price.
If the price is too high for you make an offer, let the seller decide, and move on. No sense getting nasty and arguing that it’s not worth that much. Take it or leave it.

12

How about the seller takes the buyer out for a spin? (Provided adequate seating of course.)

When my buddy bought his last bike from a private seller a couple of years ago, my recollection was that there were a good many nice bikes available at decent prices. Of course, he was just looking for an older mid-size.

When he bought his main bike new from a dealer, he went in and said, “I’m going to pay cash today for this one or that.” Took the larger for a test drive - was gone about 20 minutes. When he came back to buy it, the dealer was livid that he didn’t just putter around the block. Calmed down when my buddy cut the check. Just seemed a little odd that one would be expected to pay several grand for a bike without even getting it out of 2d.

13

Seems to be an ingrained behavior in vehicle salespeople.

When we were truck shopping, one dealership led us on a half-mile trip around the block. It was a fine demonstration of the truck’s ability to idle at a traffic light. Didn’t buy from them.

Next dealership, the salesman nearly panicked and soiled himself when we dared to aim it up a freeway onramp. Didn’t buy from them.

Third dealership, we walked in and said “We want that one. We’re not going to waste your time with test drives and tire-kicking. Let’s talk.” as we already knew how well the truck could idle and that it could go up an onramp like a scalded cat. :smiley:

14

As someone who is about to enter the world of selling motorcycles (well, one motorcycle) on Craigslist, I can tell you that I would be even less comfortable with this than with letting a stranger take a test drive themselves.

I’m not crazy about putting anyone on the back, and if I do, I want to know damn sure that I can trust them not to do anything crazy. I’m not putting someone I don’t know back there.

Plus, I really don’t want the liability in the event that we do go down.

That said, anyone in Chicago want an '07 Bonneville?

15

Oh, hell no.

If I don’t trust you not to wreck my bike, I sure as hell don’t trust you not to do something stupid as a passenger that causes me to wreck my bike and my skin and potentially be liable for some dumb-ass personal injury suit.

I let people test drive cars for sale (because you can’t drop a car), and I don’t go along with them for the same reason. Worst case scenario is that they steal or wreck my car. But it’s just a car. Why would I want to make things even worse by putting myself in the passenger seat?

16

This is what I don’t get about the no-test-drive thing.
Worst case scenario in either the car or bike case is that they steal or wreck the car or bike. People wreck cars on test drives, too, but still everyone expects to be able to test drive a car without being considered rude or unreasonable.

I don’t mind if you want to see my m-class license, even hold it if you like, but I’d still never buy a used car or bike without a test drive.

17

I haven’t ridden a motorcycle since i was in my teens, on my friends’ farms, and i’m certainly not in the market for one. But if i were, i simply can’t imagine buying one without riding it first.

On the more general topic of pricing second-hand goods, i’m constantly amazed by the prices some people think they can get for their used stuff. As far as i’m concerned, people can ask whatever they want for their shit, but it really does seem that plenty of people on the internet either (a) have no idea what that particular item can be purchased for, or (b) believe that there are enough rubes out there who won’t do any pricing or comparison shopping.

Early this year, i was considering getting a decent second-hand digital SLR camera. An ad for such a camera appeared in the classified section of my university’s online newspaper. It gave a price, but was not clear about exactly what equipment was included (how many lenses? batteries? memory cards? etc.).

I sent an email to the seller, asking what was included in the package, and she sent me back a list of items. I replied, thanking her for her time, and letting her know that i wasn’t interested, because i could buy exactly the same equipment, brand new, with full warranty, from one of America’s most trusted camera dealers (B&H in New York) for about $100 less than the price she was asking for her one-year-old used equipment.

Look, i know that electronic equipment doesn’t hold its value, and that the price of new stuff drops quickly, especially at the top of the technology curve. But the fact that you paid $1400 a year ago does not mean i’m going to give you $1000 now when the same thing can be purchased brand new for $899. If you find some moron willing to pay that sort of money, then good luck to you; but it won’t be me.

18

I am so with you on this.
There are ads right now on cycletrader offering to sell their “nearly new” “Barely ridden” 2008 bikes for $13,000, while a dozen or more dealer ads are offering them new for closer to $10,000!

Yeah, sure that extra used helmet is worth $3,000 buddy.

19

Tell me more about this Yakazuki 9000…

20

Being on an unfamiliar bike can go south a whole lot faster than being in an unfamiliar car. If you’re in a car and the brakes grab faster than you’re used to, the worst that’s liable to happen is that you’re going to skid a little ways. On a motorcycle that’s the fastest way to get up close and personal with asphalt.

So no, you’re not test riding without putting down the full purchase price as a deposit. And if that means we’re not doing business, that’s fine too. My feelings won’t be hurt because I do understand your point of view.

Hopefully, someone will be willing to sell on your terms. There will be someone to buy on mine.