N/M - Saw Marley’s instrucitons.
yes,actually, I do know what happened to them. They continued to live peacefully with their neighbors even after they lost the war. There were no massacres, no pogroms, no screaming for jihad and death to the infidels. The newly formed country which had defeated them even created a constitution and a legal system based on the Bill of Rights. Not shariah law.
This is the Dope, not 4chan…do I really have to spell out for you the difference between George Washington and Osama Bin Laden?
Can I take then you admit you are too ignorant of the facts to know how many (if any) of the rocket launchings were actually perpetrated by Israeli agents?
This hijack is over. Let it go.
This is a thread about Israel and you have no idea at all what people who don’t fall into lock-step with Israel think. What people think about Syria is irrelevant and I find all the blatant and not so blatant painting of criticism of israeli actions as anti-semitism disgusting.
While I don’t care if the entire middle east catches fire and burns to ashes I am one of those people who expect better of democracies than I do of dictatorships. And if it came to expending my limited energies for protesting I’d be protesting the parties I thought I might influence directly or influence indirectly through the opinions of that countries electorate.
I used to be interested in the middle east but now I realise Israel hasn’t any intention at all of allowing a viable and independent palestinian state (and will continue stealing any bit that takes its fancy) and Hamas has no intention of dropping the terrorism and general bat-shit craziness.
Any time it looks like things are getting too peaceful one or the other side will find some pretext to stir up the shit. Israel won’t be able to stop itself from firing missiles at bad-guy cars in crowded streets and Hamas and all points loonwards won’t be able to give up firing missiles. Given my druthers I’d put a dome over the whole region and leave it there.
(Sorry, but I couldn’t resist. And you should have seen it coming from a mile away! :p)
I don’t see where he changed his mind, contradicted himself or suffered from any sort of selective amnesia. When he said “And most rational people would understand that in a dense urban environment” he was referring to where Hamas chooses to fire rockets from, not the entirety of the Gaza Strip. When he said “Fictional. There are plenty of open spaces from which to launch attacks and Hamas could very well segregate its military forces from the civilian population.” he was pointing out that they didn’t have to be firing them from dense urban environments as there are plenty of open spaces from which to fire them. Sorry, no contradiction there or effective use of FinnAgain’s own words against him.
Apparently you don’t know.
indeed so, to end this hijack, go and educate yourself on the subject.
You could maybe start with looking up the origin of the term “Lynching”.
No. Mine would be of the solid, ‘keep the frack away from us’ variety. This shit has been going on all my long life and I’m sick of it.
And I’m in a particualry foul mood having just run a double-sided gauntlet of students chanting mindless stupid slogans about the latest round of idiocy. After the first 25 yards I was ready to start shooting randomly into the crowd. Idiots. In what way do you think this does anything but harm your cause?
Yes I do. It ain’t pretty, but it’s pretty clear.
Ok, so you accept that Israel is morally superior to its Arab neighbors?
And do you have any quotes from prominent “Pro-Palestinian” people and organizations which effectively concede that Israel is morally superior to its Arab neighbors?
Given the context of your exchange, it would appear that you are the one who needs to do some reading. Judge Lynch was active during the war, when both sides were engaged in various terrorist activities. (Lynch’s action were a response, in part, to the earlier activities–arson, murder, looting–of Josiah Phillips.)
Beyond that was the fact that several of the Tory militia were notorious for having torched several towns and for imposing their own “rough justice” on supporters of the new nation. When hostilities finally ceased, there was a certain amount of vengeance taken on the men, (often wealthy planters), who had organized Tory militia, but there was no serious effort to drive every Loyalist supporter from the new nation.
I don’t give a flying frack. As I’ve said - they can keep killing each other for all I care. Both sides disgust me. Israel disgusts me more because it disappoints me more with its land-stealing, no independent sovereign palestine controlling its own borders etc ever, things look a bit peaceful better blow someone up bullshit.
Hamas in particular and the Palestinians in general disgust me for not realising they’ve bloody lost. Israel exists. It has every right to exist and it has every right to exist without rockets and exploding buses.
There’s never going to be a right of return, there’s going to be no return to pre 1967 borders. Get the hell over it and strike whatever pathetic deal you can. And maybe a few years of not being dick-head terrorists might win you some support for a less shitty deal.
But all in all I still prefer my dome solution.
I guess that means you will not concede that Israel is morally superior to its Arab neighbors and that you cannot identify any prominent “Pro-Palestinian” people or organizations which effectively concede that Israel is morally superior to its Arab neighbors.
It is not at all weird if you comprehend the posts and their contexts. I responded to Red’s point about “50% civilian” casualties by pointing out that “most rational people would understand that in a dense urban environment, when your enemy uses its own population as human shields while wearing no uniforms, a 1:1 ratio of legitimate targets to collateral damage is ridiculously surgical.” Now, as should be obvious to you, I was pointing out that due to Hamas’ tactics, combat would take place in dense urban environments and civilian casualties would be inevitable. And I was pointing out that even with that fact, the casualties were still remarkably surgical. Totally missing the point, you posted:
“Another way of looking at it: in a dense urban environment it is next to impossible to not have civilians near the kind of targets Israel has been going for. That’s the reality of a really, really dense urban environment. So describing them as “human shields” is really, really quite silly and merely shows your unrelenting bias.” As a result of the true focus of your post being a personal insult, your ‘logical counter’ completely missed the fact that since Hamas chooses to launch rockets from dense urban areas, the local civilian are human shields precisely because of Hamas’ choice to base in close proximity to them. As you point out “that’s the reality of a really, really dense urban environment”, which is where Hamas has chosen to stage its military forces from.
And, of course, your claim that I have “unrelenting bias” is nonsense and I pointed that out as well. So this makes two posts where you simply don’t grasp the subject, respond orthogonally to the actual discussion, and spend more time building up to a fictional insult about me than actually reading and comprehending the material. If you can’t follow the argument and understand that you didn’t use my words against me, but offered babble that didn’t comprehend the topic. Of course, I don’t need to muse in GD about what you are “suffering from”.
Or, ya know, what Dissonance said.
Even before the war quite a few loyalists fled because of the treatment of Tories in rebel territory. Land would be confiscated, people were physically attacked or tarred and feathered. All as clear warnings to other loyalists, IOW terrorism.
You give us Josiah Pillips, I give you Thomas Browne, who became a ‘notorious’ Loyalist after they tarred him and burned off his toes, in 1775.
Part of the peace treaty of 1783 was that land would be returned to Loyalists.
The US never lived up to this, no right of return.
After the war some 60.000 Loyalists left the US. More would follow because of the continued bad treatment of Tories.
None of which comes close to the slaughter of the so-called “collaborators” at the hands of Hamas or Al-Fatah over the past several decades.
In fact, it was so great and so common that during the final year of the First Intifada, vastly more Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians than by the Israelis. In fact, video stores in the West Bank and Gaza regularly rent out videos of the “confessions” and executions of the supposed “collaborators”.
You can continue attempting to label George Washington a terrorist if you want, but you’re merely showing that you don’t know the meaning of the word or what he did.
You’d be vastly better off pointing to Menachem Begin and Nelson Mandela.
1000 from 1987 - 1993 during the first Intifada
53 from 1994 - 1999 according to Jewish virtual library
681 from 2000 -2012 according to B´Tselem
Gives a total of some 1750.
The total Palestinians killed by Israel since 1948 is easily 10 times as high.
Only during the 1st Intifada was the number of Palestinians killed by Palestinians
this high.
Funny you would pick that one occurence. Which pales with the 4,700 palestinians killed by Israeli forces during the 2nd Intifada.
Which I do too, which I do too.
I take it that you have since looked up Nelson Mandela and found that he was indeed a terrorist?
quoth the Wiki
Now we have to even discuss appropriateness of destroying enemy collaborators?
My Goodness the whole new world view only b/c one is biased against Palestinians.
Um… yes? Unless you’re claiming that we’re talking armed fighters, the proper procedure when dealing with suspected traitors is generally to bring them to trial and punish them according to the Law of the Land (if found guilty by the court.)
So, I take it that you are in favor both of vigilante justice and the Death Penalty?
This easily the most offensive comment made on the whole thread.
Please don’t tell me you think any but a tiny minority of the ameels were actually paid Israeli spies or something similar?
The worst any of them ever did was work as construction workers on a settlement.
In many if not most cases they were just people who did something to piss off somebody in Hamas or Al-Fatah or someone connected to one of those groups.
I actually met a family in the West Bank who’s son was murdered as a “collaborator”.
His crime? Showing some cartoons a London-based Arab newspaper had printed ridiculing Arafat as an armchair revolutionary who lived in luxury and didn’t even know how to fire that pistol he liked to parade around with.
The animals who killed him, first made him confess on videotape, after clearly some “persuasion” had been used, to being a Mossad spy bribed into weakening support for “the Chairman.”