Jim has been told this repeatedly, with force, and by multiple people. I don’t think the neighbors would hurt Bob – they truly are nice people, if emotionally overwrought right now, and therefore IMO not acting rationally – but Bob now does has a “record” as a cat killer and I don’t think Jim will be able to avoid giving Bob away (or having him put down) if it happens a third time, out of Jim’s yard.
just dawned on me, if Jim has a shock collar for his dog/yard then it shouldn’t cost much to add the cat to the system. The dog will want to stay in and the cat will want to stay out.
Since the first cat is now known for not dying in it’s owner’s yard, it’s both peoples fault. Now the neighbor has no business bitching their cats are dead because of a uncontrolled dog.
Another, belated, vote for the three sentences. And this type of emotional thing will never get handled well by email.
You might introduce some “expert testimony” from one of the many veterinarians who strongly advocate keeping cats indoors. Also, it is possible to work with a good shelter (since they are in NC, I’ll enthusiastically recommend Safe Haven for Cats) to find a cat that’s good fit for an indoor lifestyle. Safe Haven in fact has owners sign a contract that the cats will be kept indoors. There are also prefab cat runs/enclosures if the cat absolutely needs some outside time.
ETA: I knew this would be a tough situation if **Jodi ** was posting, since she regularly mops the floor with all of our other interpersonal conflict problems.
Ouch. It sounds like the neighbors are upset enough that they don’t have a desire to actually settle this reasonably. If the stakes and flags are preliminaries to a cat run in their yard, well and good. Sort of. I guess.
Sad to say, it sounds to me like Jim may want to prepare himself, and his kids, to adjust to a permanently cooler, more distant relationship. Asking him by e-mail to give the dog “to a more appropriate home” is classic passive aggression. I’m quite sure they know Bob would be euthanized. The fact that they still demand an eye-for-an-eye to placate their son doesn’t sound good for a mended relationship. The neighbors may be nice when things are easy but they haven’t shown well under pressure, IMO. They’ve still taken no responsibility for their negligence and are distressingly eager to inflict grief on your brother’s kids. That’s just nasty.
If you aren’t sick to dry heaves of unsolicited advice yet, Jodi, I’ll just toss out this last bit. Sometime, sooner or later, the neighbors will make some reference about Daffy to your brother’s kids. They love their dog and will need some kind of shield against guilt, confusion, etc., especially when it comes from people they like and trust. Damned if I know how that’d be done. Maybe something like, “They’re fine people who are hurting right now so it would be small and shameful of us to remind them they didn’t take good care of Daffy”? Maybe some parental types could help on how best to prepare them for the aftermath.
Freakin’ ditto!
As a cat owner who (I hope to Og I don’t get pitted for this) lets her cats outside, I’ll put in my two cents:
When I let my cats out, I know that:
- They are likely to hunt; small songbirds and squirrels and such, beware!
- They are potential victims.
You can bet money that if I had one cat killed by a neighbor’s dog on “neutral ground”, I would think twice before letting my cats out again! I would think, “Hey, there’s a dog in the neighborhood that’s very aggressive towards cats”, and therefore, if I let my cat out in spite of knowing this, it’s on my conscience!
IMHO, Jim needs to let the neighbors know, on no uncertain terms, that he is very sorry for their loss, but his kids love Bob just like neighbor’s kids loved the cats! Therefore, it is cruel to the kids to get rid of Bob!
I like the idea of Jim financing another kitten on the basis that it will be an indoors only cat (both of our cats were indoor/outdoor when we adopted them; this doesn’t mean they couldn’t have been trained differently, but I think it’s easier if you adopt a kitten who’s never had an outdoor lifestyle, and train it not to have one).
Well, without having this devolve into an indoor outdoor cat debate, I’ll say what I know.
We live in the sticks. There are more foxes around our house than cars that go down our road in a day.
We used to have two outdoor cats. Used too. We now have two very happy indoor cats. And two very happy dogs.
I built a fenced in area and put in a doggie door so the dogs can go in at out at will. Do their business. The cats don’t try to go out the door.
I built the fence just as much for the dogs protection as other animals. I don’t want them getting lost, getting in to a porcupine, chasing deer or worse. The dogs, and my Wife and I are intruding on the other animals habitat. I think we can all live here.
Ours cats will stalk and kill mice in the house. The dogs though, understand that our cats are part of the ‘pack’ (for lack of a better word). The cats love the dogs. The dogs are pretty much indifferent.
I’ve never seen a cat running loose around here, they would really be out of their element. But, I do know my dogs do like to chase ground squirrels and such.
Re: offering to buy another cat…… Ummm. I think it’s a nice offer I guess, but seems a little crass and unfeeling. It’s not like replacing a mailbox or something.
Offering to help buy a cat enclosure after Jim has invested money containing his dog? Well OK. But almost suggests quilt. I think a more neighborly approach would be to help install one.
Every bit of this post is excellent advice and I agree with it all. I also still say that the neighbors must do what they think they should do, however if it’s a fence they are putting up and they think a cat won’t jump it, well…lets just say that would be a stupid assumption. If they haven’t learned yet though that the cat must be kept out of Jim’s yard then there isn’t much to be said. They do seem to be laying the ground to perhaps file a report down the road if something else happens since they emailed. Either way, I still would not give up my pet. They are irresponsible pet owners.
I advocate the use of the three sentence technique myself.
As a cat and dog owner, I have done my best to socialize my felines with my canines and for most of the time, the animals get along. However, I did have one dog who just suddenly began killing my cats…and the kittens that were born that spring. Sadly, I had to find her a new home. One without cats.
Now I have a black lab who gets along very well with his feline friends. But if an animal wanders into his yard, it is fair game. (He has killed possums and snakes- if these were pets, no one has stepped forward as of yet. )
I think Jim should keep the dog. His neighbors may want to consider keeping the cat indoors.
Of course, Caesar Milan would probably work with the dog and teach him to not be aggressive with cats. But even then, that isn’t a guarantee if a kitty comes walking by Bob.
Just repeating what most everyone else has said:
Jim took reasonable corrective measures after the first incident.
People who want to let their cats wander around unsupervised should get used to having dead cats.
Well, I think there is lots of responsibility to go around myself.
Bob is a killer and, I believe the neighbours have a right to be concerned that anything going into the yard could get killed. And I think it’s a little shocking that Jim thinks that is okay and takes no steps to train his dog toward better behaviour.
I think Jim should replace their cat at his cost, then suggest they may want to keep it indoors. If they choose not to that’s there business. Jim has no more right to ‘tell’ them to keep it an indoor cat, than they have, to tell Jim, to train his animal better.
Jim should put a muzzle on Bob whenever he is unsupervised in the yard. It isn’t that hard really. It will calm the neighbourhoods concerns over Bob the killer’s potential. No need to find him a new home, or talk of putting him down. It will also keep another incident from occurring. Bob still gets to play in the yard as much as ever. Everyone wins, no relationships are frayed.
Anything? Please. Dial back the hyperbole a bit.
He’s no more a “killer” than you are.
It’s instinct, not behavior. Training a strong prey drive out of a dog is nearly impossible. And unnecessary, as long as stray pets keep out of his reach.
The cat doesn’t need to stay indoors. It just needs to stay out of Jim’s yard. He has a right to tell them that.
I believe both dogs and cats are - by nature - predators. Nearly all dogs have an instictive desire to chase apparent prey, and they mouth whatever they catch - often with undesireable results for whatever ends up in their mouth.
Hunters generally need to train their retreivers not to tear up prey they retreive, and all dog owners have to work on bite inhibition. But it generally isn’t terribly important to teach a dog not to chase small furry animals that venture into your yard. If my dog chases rabbits, mice, and other varmints out of my yard, more power to her. And if she occasionally catches and kills one, well, I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. You don’t want your cat chased or killed, keep it out of my yard, or under your control.
You want to talk killers, you’d be hard pressed to identify many more hardwired predators than free-roaming domestic cats.
This puzzles me. Why is it Jim’s responsibility to make sure that small animals are not killed in his own yard? What if Jim didn’t like cats shitting in his flowerbeds and killing the songbirds, and Jim himself – not Bob – killed any cats that came over the fence? Would that be more or less acceptable than Bob acting out of nature? Why isn’t it the neighbors’ responsibility to ensure the safety of their own pet? It’s not as if the cat has any right to be in Jim’s yard.
I feel pretty strongly that Jim has a right to have his own dog on his own property, so long as he keeps it on his own property. I feel pretty strongly that all pet owners – dogs, cats, birds, fish – have the primary and ultimate responsibility to safeguard the health and safety of their own pets. It doesn’t take a village to raise a cat. I think it’s completely unreasonable to expect Bob to have to wear a muzzle in his own yard, just to safeguard a cat that shouldn’t be in the yard in the first place. It’s true that Jim can’t tell them to keep their cats indoors, and he hasn’t tried to do so. But neither is it his fault if their cats are injured or killed if they let the cats out unsupervised.
And I also think you’ve completely misread the OP if you gathered that Jim thinks any of this is okay.
Well, to be fair, cats don’t like being restricted, period. If you shut off access to, say, the guest room because guests are staying over, that drives them really wild. Close the bathroom door because someone’s taking a shower and they’ll sit there pouting. Etc. They’re like little kids, always wanting what they can’t have.
Mine haven’t really wanted to go outdoors since they were about 2 years old. But they’re both sedentary breeds, which I picked specially because I started off living in a small apartment. Maybe people should start breeds in account for cats like they do with dogs (e.g., unfair to a lab to live in a studio apartment, but just dandy for a shih-tzu…). The Persian in particular has never shown an inkling for adventure nor exercise, and never even has tried to go outdoors, yet she seems perfectly happy & healthy.
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The first incident was an accident, the dog got out and Jim did everything he could to prevent that happening again. On the part of the cat owner though, it wouldn’t have happened if the cat was not outside.
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The second incident was also an accident but wouldn’t have happened if the cat wasn’t outside. Since this was a new kitten, there was no reason not to keep it indoors. The best time to train a cat to stay inside is when it’s young, if it never knows what it’s missing it won’t want to go outside.
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As has been said most places have leash laws for dogs and cats. In the first incident both were at fault, in the second the owners of the cat were at fault.
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Some dogs kill small prey, you can’t really train it out of them. If this dog went to a shelter he would be euthanized because of his history because they can’t risk the liability. Giving the dog away to someone else only transfers the potential problem to someone else who could end up having to also give the dog up or have him put down. Essentially these people are asking trying to punish Jim, his family and the dog for what is essentially an accident since dogs and cats will be dogs and cats and sometimes this stuff happens. It’s just much worse because it happened twice to the same people.
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Just because he kills small prey, like cats or squirrels, does not mean he will start killing children but I still wouldn’t trust this dog around small children.
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Jim could certainly express his regret for what happened in both situations but he should not agree to guilt or culpability. In both cases the neighbors were also at fault, especially in the second. If he would like to offer to help with expenses with a new cat he can certainly do that but he should suggest that they keep the cat indoors because there are lots of other dangers besides his dog.
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Since Jim has tried to do everything he can to prevent such an incident happening again after the first time, there are a few more things he could do. There are fences that are designed to keep cats inside a fenced yard, so if he added the fencing to the top of his fences facing the other way it could possibly also keep cats out of his yard. He could only allow the dog outside while supervised. He could take the dog for training, I don’t really think he can stop it from wanting to kill prey but he might get it to follow voice commands to the point that the dog will stop if caught in the act but again, this will only work if the dog is always supervised while outside. If the dog is walked outside his yard, he can put a basket muzzle (greyhound) muzzle on it.
How does a muzzled dog play in a yard, since dogs lower their temperature by panting? The dog would have a heat stroke.
A dog’s mouth is roughly equivalent to a human’s hands. Anyone who thinks that muzzling a dog during his outside play time is OK should try on a pair of handcuffs (behind the back) and poke around the back yard for a while. Loads o’ fun!
Jim should definitely keep the dog! (If it was my dog, I would move him inside due to fear of what the unreasonable neighbors might do.)
The neighbors need to learn to keep their cats inside…especially if it’s a kitten. Thinking about my own neighborhood, there are plenty of reasons a kitten shouldn’t be wandering around by itself (storm drains, construction sites/equipment, etc.).
Not sure if either of you are referring to my post, if you are you misread, so just in case you were referring to my post here’s a detailed explanation of my comment;
Walked outside his yard, as in “under direct supervision on a leash”
basket muzzle (greyhound) muzzle. I meant to type “basket (greyhound) muzzle” so perhaps this was misread as just “muzzle” even though I did say “basket muzzle”.
I expected that anyone unfamiliar with the term would google it. A basket or greyhound muzzle allows the animal to open their mouth to pant, bark, even drink water, what they can’t do with this muzzle on is insert other animals larger than the holes in the basket into their mouths and chew on them.
I was not advocating leaving a closed muzzle or any muzzle on a dog unsupervised, this should never be done. But for walking a dog in a neighborhood where there is the potential of the dog trying to grab the neighbor’s cat or little frou-frou dog that runs loose, the basket muzzle allows you that little extra bit of control because dogs can be fast and I have seen small dogs run up to large dogs and get grabbed and injured before either owner can do anything. I have also witnessed the result of such many times in my 25 years working in the field of animal health care, which is precisely why I would never suggest using something on one’s dog that could injure or kill it.
So once again, basket (greyhound) muzzle ONLY when under direct human supervision.