Opinions On A Neighbor/Pet Problem

In My Humble Opinion
81

I see the distinction you’re making, Wile E, but Bob doesn’t need a muzzle when he’s on a leash. He obeys voice commands (“No!” “Leave it!”) and is leash-aware enough to know he can’t just take off without hitting the end of the lead and choking himself. He’s a very laid-back, unassertive dog, so he’s pretty obedient with adults, although he can’t be leash-walked by the kids because he doesn’t respect them as authorities over him so he happily drags them down the street. But when he’s on a leashed walk in the neighborhood he’s with Jim (or me, if I’m visiting) and no muzzle is necessary.

He would no doubt also obey voice commands to “Leave it!” in the yard, if a person (an adult) was around to see him snag a cat (rabbit, squirrel, rodent). But no one was around when Daffy came into his yard.

82

The neighbors should keep their kitten/cat indoors. If it goes into Bob’s yard, the cat is fair game. It could also have been run over by a car, for that matter.

83

[QUOTE=Jodi]
I see the distinction you’re making, Wile E, but Bob doesn’t need a muzzle when he’s on a leash. He obeys voice commands (“No!” “Leave it!”) and is leash-aware enough to know he can’t just take off without hitting the end of the lead and choking himself. He’s a very laid-back, unassertive dog, so he’s pretty obedient with adults, although he can’t be leash-walked by the kids because he doesn’t respect them as authorities over him so he happily drags them down the street. But when he’s on a leashed walk in the neighborhood he’s with Jim (or me, if I’m visiting) and no muzzle is necessary.

He would no doubt also obey voice commands to “Leave it!” in the yard, if a person (an adult) was around to see him snag a cat (rabbit, squirrel, rodent). But no one was around when Daffy came into his yard.
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Another reason for this kind of muzzle is perception. An owner may have every confidence in their pet and control over it but what the neighbors perceive when they see the dog walking around is a cat killer and potential killer of other small animals. The basket muzzle would show the observer that the owner of the dog has taken every precaution to protect other animals from his dog. I know many people use these muzzles for that reason.

It takes only a split second for the dog to grab and seriously injure or kill a small animal that runs up to it. Humans may not be able to react fast enough to give a command before the first bite and the first bite can do a lot of damage. I witnessed a case of a Big Dog/Little Dog where both dogs were obedience trained (this was at an obedience club meeting!) but neither owner were watching their dogs and little dog ran up to big dog who took one bite of his abdomen and disemboweled him. This all happened in a second. Little dog survived after veterinary care but as you can imagine there was a lot of arguments over who was at fault.

Also, depending on the laws in your area, if the cat owners report the incidents to animal services they could possibly get the dog labeled as potentially dangerous and a muzzle could be required anytime the dog leaves his property. Basically, if these people raise enough of a stink, say with animal services or Jim’s homeowner’s insurance company, they could make it a necessity for Jim to have to take further precautions with his dog. I am just suggesting that he take those steps now to visually show them he is being cautious so if any authorities do get involved they will see his commitment to protect other animals.

I can see that the dog owner may feel that putting this type muzzle on the dog may seem like he’s admitting that the dog is dangerous, but it’s sometimes better to be safe than sorry. There is also the gentle leader collar which is not exactly a muzzle but will give a little more control over the dogs mouth and what he does with it if the idea of a muzzle is that daunting.

Honestly, I don’t think he’s done anything wrong and I really think the best option is the extra fencing to keep small critters out of his yard, but going the extra mile to show he is the one taking all the precautions would not hurt with the neighborhood’s perception of him.

84

[QUOTE=Wile E]
Another reason for this kind of muzzle is perception. An owner may have every confidence in their pet and control over it but what the neighbors perceive when they see the dog walking around is a cat killer and potential killer of other small animals. The basket muzzle would show the observer that the owner of the dog has taken every precaution to protect other animals from his dog. I know many people use these muzzles for that reason.
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Well, I tend to reach the exact opposite conclusion on perceptions. I think when people see a dog in a muzzle they reasonably assume they are looking at a dangerous dog. I personally would never muzzle a dog that did not need it for that reason alone. IMO this approach would be tantamount to Jim admitting that Bob is a dangerous dog that people need to be worried about, when he’s not and they don’t need to be.

As a life-long multiple dog owner, I have never had, or even seen, a cat (rabbit, squirrel, rodent) just run up to a strange dog. I assume their self-preservation instinct rightly prevents that. Small dogs with Napoleon complexes, yeah; but Bob is not dog-aggressive.

We already covered this, but it is not correct, a least not in our jurisdiction. Bob would require muzzling if he were a dangerous dog; he would not require it as only a potentially dangerous dog, even if he was found to be one, which he hasn’t been.

I certainly can respect that as a valid opinion; I just happen to think that muzzles send very clear messages about dogs, and the message “I’m being a very responsible pet owner” cannot be divorced from the message “this is a dangerous dog.”

85

[QUOTE=TheLoadedDog]
I dunno about indoor cats.

I have tried raising indoor cats from kittens. The three of them became obsessed with the outdoors, spending hour upon hour sitting in the window, and using complicated pincer movements to get in a position to charge any door to the outside whenever they saw me approaching the still-closed door. YMMV of course, but that was my experience. I’d have trouble believing that indoor cats are truly happy.

On the other hand, nice dog as he is, Bob should go. Even if the owners agree to indoor cats, is a swift cat bolting outside between your legs when you have both hands full with laundry something that should result in the cat being arbitrarily killed by a neighbour’s pet dog? I don’t think so. The dog’s done it twice. Sorry, Fido.
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To be the bad guy here…I agree. Of course the owner says he’s a ‘good dog’…but he’s killed twice. Now, nature being what it is, I don’t ‘blame’ the dog…but the dog needs to go.

Also…if I was the neighbor and the dog owner flaunted his ‘you can’t do anything about it’ to me or ‘it’s your fault, not mine’ or ‘it’s nature…you have to live with it’ after it killed the second cat…that dog would be dead within a week.

86

[QUOTE=BlinkingDuck]
Also…if I was the neighbor and the dog owner flaunted his ‘you can’t do anything about it’ to me or ‘it’s your fault, not mine’ or ‘it’s nature…you have to live with it’ after it killed the second cat…that dog would be dead within a week.
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This actually helps me assess the value of the first part of your post, insofar as I am unlikely to have much respect for the opinion of anyone whose idea of right conduct is to kill someone else’s pet.

87

[QUOTE=Jodi]
This actually helps me assess the value of the first part of your post, insofar as I am unlikely to have much respect for the opinion of anyone whose idea of right conduct is to kill someone else’s pet.
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Hey..like I said ‘to be a bad guy’. I didn’t say ‘Not to be a bad guy…’.

I’m also giving warning to the OP that the neighbor could be thinking exactly this, especially with him having a hurting, tearful kid around.

88

I have to admit that were I the owner of the cat-killing dog, I’d be seriously thinking of having the dog put to sleep.

But, I’m much more of a cat person than I am a dog person, and my biggest concerns when our family cat killed birds and mice was the mess–and dealing with the deceased critter.

And this is the abstract, where I’m not attached to the dog. I’m pretty sure that if someone’s dog killed my cat, I’d either not replace the cat or have an indoor-only cat.

(In fact, this is true for my parents, although the cat died of a stroke or heart attack or something, not as a result of a cat fight. But there are too many cats who treat my parents’ yard as part of their territory for my parents to be comfortable acquiring another indoor/outdoor cat, and our cat enjoyed the outdoors too much for my parents to be excited about a strictly indoor cat. )

89

I have to disagree with a bunch of you. I own 1 dog and 2 elderly cats. The same rules do not apply to cats and dogs; nor should they. Dogs can attack adults/children/other smaller animals. Cats at worst will attack birds or rodents. I would never ever in a million years allow my dog to run free, even if there weren’t any community restrictions. Cats get a pass. If someone’s loose dog attacks my cat on what is neutral ground, I blame the dog period. If the attack is on my property, the dog’s a goner. If my cat is in the dog’s yard, then its the cats hard luck.

There is a cat repellent that is mighty effective. You sprinkle it along the perimeter of your property. I think it’s coyote urine based. It’s not expensive and something like that might have prevented the OP’s second cat killing. And yes, we use it to keep our neighbor’s big old orange tabby from visiting my dog.

90

For completeness’s sake, I should also acknowledge that were I the owner of a cat-killing dog and my neighbor wanted me to have the dog put to sleep or given away, it would not significantly increase the likelihood of me doing so (assuming no legal ability to compel me). I’d dig in my heels and resist with all my might. It’s just that I would be uncomfortable owning a pet that killed other people’s pets routinely, and would consider putting it down for my own comfort.

91

[QUOTE=Wile E]
Not sure if either of you are referring to my post,
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You must be kidding. I quoted the post I was referring to in my response. Why in the world would you think I was responding to you?

As for muzzling a dog while she is being walked to protect small dogs who might run up to her, that seems silly to me. Why aren’t these small dogs on a leash? Why should I be responsible for the bad behavior of another pet owner?

One of my dogs is an 80 pound Rottweiller. A sweeter, gentler dog you will never meet. No way would I walk her muzzled. It would send the message that she is dangerous, which she isn’t. However, if a cat manages to climb the six foot privacy fence that encircles my backyard, or if a pet owner chooses to ignore the “Beware of Dog” signs posted all around and lets his cat run loose, she just might kill it. Maybe. If she doesn’t, the 13 pound Jack Russell will. It’s what they do. Kind of like killing songbirds, chipmunks, voles, etc. is what cats do.

None of these problems would have occurred if the respective owners had confined their animals. Jim recognized this, and took steps to prevent future problems. The neighbor did not. Daffy’s death is on his hands.

92

[QUOTE=Harmonious Discord]
How does a muzzled dog play in a yard, since dogs lower their temperature by panting? The dog would have a heat stroke.
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Wile E said he meant a basket muzzle, but even the other sort if properly fitted allows a dog not only to pant but also drink water. The jaw is not completely restricted from opening, it just keeps them from opening enough to bite (or howl).

93

[QUOTE=BwanaBob]
Cats get a pass.
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Not in my yard they don’t. I actively encourage them to leave.

94

[QUOTE=BlinkingDuck]
I’m also giving warning to the OP that the neighbor could be thinking exactly this, especially with him having a hurting, tearful kid around.
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If I lived there and my neighbor was flaunting his hurting, tearful kid around, that kid would be dead within a week.

95

[QUOTE=BwanaBob]
<snip> Dogs can attack adults/children/other smaller animals. Cats at worst will attack birds or rodents. <snip>
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In the interest of fighting ignorance, I must respectfully disagree with you on what cats are capable of. My husband’s cat was fully prepared to attack a toddler; she had never seen one before, it was frightening her, and she was going to take care of the problem when we realized what was going on and got the toddler the heck out of there. Cats also attack dogs and other cats. And humans, too, if you get them in the right mood. Cats attacking other cats is a particular problem if you’ve got your cat out on a leash, and a free-roaming cat comes by - cats are extremely territorial.

96

Because no one has seen unleashed small dogs run up to leashed large dogs it must never happen? Not only have I witnessed such a thing several times in person but I have also seen the aftermath many many times.

In my experience* people with small dogs are less likely to leash their dogs, many small dogs don’t realize they are small dogs and will run right up to large dogs either to be aggressive or play and with so many dog parks around there are a lot of dogs of all sizes running around and biting each other. The little guys do not fare well in these situations.

Again, my experience covers 25 years working in vet hospitals and all of those years either full or part time at emergency clinics. So I have seen a lot of Big dog/little dog and Big dog/big dog injuries. Many of the BD/LD’s turned out to be the little dog was running loose and the big dog was leashed and “under control”.

As for the dangerous dog/potentially dangerous dog thing. Semantics. I stuck a “potentially” in there for no reason. Some areas consider a dog that has killed someone else’s pet once a dangerous dog, some areas wait until they have bitten a person once before they give them that distinction. If the laws in your area were covered, sorry I missed it. I read the thread, had to sign off, then came back later and posted my opinion and only skimmed the posts that were made in the interim.

97

Having to dash, can’t read all the replies, but my suggestion would be:

Get Jim to offer to help the neighbours erect a cat enclosure in their own yard. He’s taken steps to create a safe dog enclosure in his; if they’ll do the same for their cat the problems should cease.

You can easily make a cat run (similar to a long, skinny aviary) linked to a cat door. It’s not hard. Cat gets best of both worlds; safe enclosure, but fresh air and sunshine.

If Jim’s handy with tools, helping the neighbours erect a cat run might go a long way towards keeping things friendly.

98

I have been on both sides of this story. When I was about 5, a neighbor’s dog came into our garage and killed our cat. It was terribly sad, and noone felt worse than the neighbors. It was a terrible incident, but there was no malice on the part of the neighbors. We got a new pet. Life went on.

I now have 2 basenjis that stay in our back yard. A kitten (3-4 months old) came into our back yard to play. I woke up to the horrible noises. I immediately called the police. It actually took some persuading to get an officer to come to the house in the middle of the night. I wanted the incident to be on record if/when someone called about a missing kitty.
The attitude of the police dept was: People are responsible for keeping their pets ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY.

In both of the incidents involving Bob, the cat owners are at fault, IMO. It doesn’t mean it’s not sad. It also does not mean that Bob is a killer because he instinctively preyed upon a smaller animal.

Hopefully, time will give the neighbors a measure of perspective.

99

[QUOTE=Wile E]

In my experience* people with small dogs are less likely to leash their dogs,
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I’ll ask it again. Why should I have to muzzle my animal because someone else is an irresponsible pet owner?

100

[QUOTE=featherlou]
In the interest of fighting ignorance, I must respectfully disagree with you on what cats are capable of. My husband’s cat was fully prepared to attack a toddler; she had never seen one before, it was frightening her, and she was going to take care of the problem when we realized what was going on and got the toddler the heck out of there. Cats also attack dogs and other cats. And humans, too, if you get them in the right mood. Cats attacking other cats is a particular problem if you’ve got your cat out on a leash, and a free-roaming cat comes by - cats are extremely territorial.
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I agree here. This attack behavior is very apparent if you meet a feral cat. They shred people and other animals that get near them. Pet cats do it also.