We’re thinking of getting a dog ( a beautiful border collie - 1 1/2 years old ). She’s never been a working dog, but she is normally kept outside in a large pen, although she does have house manners and is very sociable and easygoing.
We both work 8 hour days (Monday-Friday 8-4) and we’re pondering what would be best for the dog - to have free run of the house or to be kept in a kennel/crate so she has a feeling of security.
Most days we’re home at lunchtime and of course she’d be let out of the crate whenever one of us is home.
She’ll be taken for lots of walks and I plan to start agility training with her, so she’ll get lots of exercise, TLC and training.
What are your opinions Dopers? Free run of the house, or kept in a large crate (as large as possible) during the day?
Since this is a Border Collie, I’m for free run of the house. Unless the dog shows she can’t handle it and chews/destroys or poops/pees in the house. But it sounds like an adult dog who should be able to handle it.
I’m not a fan of leaving dogs outside all day with no supervision. Dogs get bored, dig out, jump fences, play in traffic and find all sorts of dangers that they might not find inside the house. I think a dog is safer inside the house.
I’d start with free run of the house. Any problems, then I’d probably invest in a strong, tall baby gate of some sort and block the dog off in one large room, say in the kitchen with the tile floors (and cleaning supplies locked up somewhere high out of dog reach). I’d probably crate as a last resort, but you need to get to know the dog first and see how she responds to being left alone.
If you adopt, get her on a Friday and experiment over the weekend leaving her for short periods of time and slowly build up. Make a point of getting home at lunch to take her out for the first few weeks until she gets a feel for your routine.
Some dogs take to crates right away, and I think there’s nothing wrong with crating as long as it’s not used for punishment. Some dogs (like my 6 year old rescue) will never be okay in a crate.
I have one question for you before I formulate an opinion on whether or not to crate this particular dog: Why is it being given up in the first place?
Some border collies, around that age, are given up because they are destructive, too active, or too high-energy in general. If that is the case, then crate crate crate when you’re not home.
HIGHLY intelligent breeds will come up with things to do if they’re bored, and usually those things are not exactly what you’d like them to do… A high energy dog will NOT sleep 6 hours straight necessarily, and if she/he wakes up, they’ll be up to something.
Now - My dogs are crated/penned when I’m not home - mainly it’s because I have one who isn’t totally reliable housebreaking wise (he’s super sweet, just not the sharpest knife in the drawer), one who goes bonkers if he DOESN’T have a crate around, and an aussie who would raid the kitchen countertops AND the fridge AND the pantry if she were left to her own devices…
Border Collies are notoriously intelligent and I’d say a 1.5 year old would find things to do…i.e. gnaw things like your favorite slippers. However, I have a very good friend who let’s his BC roam the house with no problem.
I’d be concerned that the instant loss of freedom by being placed into the crate all day would be too traumatizing for the little pooch. So I’d say leave him for a bit, and see what happens.
We have a Rhodesian that we initially worried about, as they are another highly intelligent breed, we worried about a lot of our house being chewed apart. In the end the pure amount of training we did with him made for a reliable dog. When a puppy, he certainly had his accidents, but now we don;t worry about anything. Then again, I’m home for the summer and my wife works from home now…
The struggles of jeevwoman and I with this issue are fairly well-documented on the Board. Essentially, it is a matter of trial and error. We had the complicating factor that we adopted pound dogs. Pound dogs are more likely to be crate averse than dogs who were raised with them from puppyhood. It doesn’t sound like your proposed dog is a pound dog. Nonetheless, heed Elenfair - border collies are often too clever and too active for their own good.
If you have a room in your house that has a window outside and nothing of significant value, you might try confining the dog there.
**Elenfair ** - she belongs to my former sister-in-law, who owns a ranch and also breeds border collies. She bought this one to breed, but one of the males got at her a little too soon, so she ended up having to get her spayed when she was 8 months (I think). They already have a couple of new dogs that they’re training to work, and they can’t take on a third. She’s such a sweet dog that they’ve been keeping her as a pet, but they’re so busy that they don’t have enough time to spend with her. When they heard I was looking for a dog, they immediately thought that we’d be a good match.
My ex and I owned a border collie together, and he was such a wonderful dog. I believe I have a good idea of the special border collie temperament, quirks, and instincts.
**Dogzilla ** - I agree about the outside-dog points, and I also prefer to have an inside-dog. Plus they’re cleaner! Good advice re: getting her on a Friday to have the whole weekend together. I also think giving her the run of the house a try first is a good idea. Like Phlosphr, I think the transition from large pen to crate could be pretty traumatizing, especially on top of a move to a new family.
Any other ideas on making the whole move smoother for her and for us?
Dogs are like kids–when they’re bored, they get into trouble if they can possibly manage it. And the smart ones tend to get bored pretty easily.
It’s always a good idea to have a crate on hand in case you ever need it. I’ve got a collapsible one that’s great for visiting people. Besides, many dogs like having a clearly defined space that’s all theirs so it’s often good for them to have a crate, even if the door stands open all the time. I know one lady who actually took the door off her dog’s crate, because she was tired of it hanging out into the room.
If it were me, I’d crate her until I knew exactly how house-trained she was, how she reacts to being left alone (some dogs freak out and destroy stuff, not out of boredom but out of sheer panic, and sometimes manage to hurt themselves), and how much of her puppy-chewing she’d grown out of. With Dolly, I took her to work with me and kept her in the kennel until I got a feel for how she’d do on her own, and with Claudia, I crated her while I was sleeping and took them both to work with me if Dr.J wasn’t going to be home. Fortunately, they were both very good with the house-training thing, although Dolly was still a bit of a chewer and is still more than a bit of a counter-top thief.
Both of them were strays who had been roaming the countryside for an undetermined amount of time, and they both did wonderfully with the crate. I put down a blankie, tossed a couple treats in there, and Dolly ran right in. We left the door open and kept feeding her treats through the bars, and that was enough to make her luuuuvvv the crate. Claudia had been too doped up to have any idea where she was when they brought her to the clinic, and she stayed there for a few days, so for her, the crate was a warm place where people petted you and brought you giant bowls of canned food. She’s a pretty timid dog, especially in new situations, so having someplace for her to get away from all the new stuff was really good for her.
I am all for crate training…primarily because there may be occasions in the dog’s life when she will have to be crated and a dog who is used to this is less likely to flip ot when crated.
A couple of hints on getting her used to crating.
To begin with, crate her for short periods of time. This will help her to know that you are coming back.
It is nice to give them something particularly special when you crate and ONLY when you crate. This is also good for a dog with separation anxiety who will concentrate more on the goodie than on being alone. I use stuffed Kongs to keep mine busy when I have to crate for long periods…it takes them hours to work out the food.
Never use the crate as dog jail.
I have 2 aussies that are crate trained. I don’t crate during the day anymore because they are reliable in the house, but I continue to crate at night.
Good luck with your adoptee, and rememer, keep her busy!
Play it by ear - I’d look into getting an exercise pen, if you’re worried about a crate being too restrictive. BCs ARE high energy and do come up with stuff to do when you’re not there to supervise them
GO AUSSIES! I only have one aussie right now, but she’s the bee’s knees! And a royal PAIN in the ass. Gotta love 'em! (Check out the new pictures in the conformation section! Woohoo!)
Personally, I’d go for the wire ones. They give a dog a view of its surroundings, and generally fold up for easy storage if you have to put it away for some reason.
Collapsible wire one, definitely. I think mine is made by PetMate, and it’s much better for traveling than the plastic ones, because it folds up smaller. The plastic ones, even if you take them apart, are pretty bulky and are a pain in the butt, but this one folds flat and fits on the bottom of the trunk, or on the backseat floorboard. You just pop the front and back sections in, then slide the rest of it over to the side and flip it back over. It takes all of 30 seconds to take it down or put it up, and if you want it out of the way while you’re home, you can store it under a bed or behind a chair. It’s one of the best $50 I’ve ever spent.
Also, with a wire kennel, a bored or anxious dog is less likely to damage the crate. I’ve seen a few dogs chew holes in those plastic things, and I even heard about one really determined guy who chewed his way out of the crate, but I’ve never seen one damage a wire crate. And as jeevmon has pointed out, a wire crate allows for them to see what’s going on, and border collies are nosy little beasts, so she’ll want to know what’s going on. Always. In any room. At any time.
I have a Honda and I was looking for a kennel that would be big enough to be comfy for the dog, but small enough to fit in the backseat for road trips …
The size/weight guidelines seem quite … um … crazy - they seem much too small.
So I think I’ll just get the biggest one that will fit in my backseat and go from there. It’s not really a matter of crate training her in terms of bathroom habits, it’s more a matter of giving her a secure “den” and something safe to travel in.
I like the plastic one because it gives her some cover if we ever take her in the truck (which has no canopy) and more shelter from the wind back there. But I like the wire one because of the sturdiness and the curiosity factor.
This is all so exciting!!! We’re taking her on a trial basis for a couple of weeks minimum to see how she adapts to us & her new life, and how we adapt to her …
The size/weight suggestions on the crate seem way too small for the dog, but they’re actually about right. I went up a size for Dolly (the 60# range for a 40# dog), and it’s big enough that I’ve put another 40# dog in there with her, with both of them quite comfy. She and Claudia (full-grown German Shepherd) can share it if needed, but that’s pushing it a bit. A den is just a place to curl up in, after all, so a kennel just needs to be big enough for her to stand up and turn around easily, and that’s a surprisingly small space.
For travelling, you’ll want to stow the crate and put a seatbelt on poochie. (Trust me, if you have to stop suddenly, you don’t want her bouncing off the sides of a crate.) That way she’s got room to sit, lie, stand, shift positions, etc., but is still restrained in case of trouble. When I had the Beretta, the trunk opening was slightly too small for the crate, so I slid it between the edge of the back seat and the back of my seat, put the cat carrier and the luggage in the back seat, and harnessed Dolly in the front. Now I’ve got a Saturn coupe, and when I travel with the zoo the crate goes in the trunk under the luggage, the cat carrier is in the back seat, and the dogs are harnessed in the front and back seats.
As far as the truck, a lot of people around here strap a tarp onto the sides of the wire crate for sun and wind protection. And they strap the crate in place in a corner of the truck bed, of course, so it won’t be sliding around.
<sigh> The last time our Willow was in a crate (the wire kind), she managed to break off a few of the bars. I don’t think she’d have managed to get out, but she was sure determined to. I am beginning to think we have very strange dogs, indeed. <sigh>
because I like the vertical folding door. My present situation make this a big plus.
I know people who prefer all kinds of different crates and this usually depends on the dog. Honestly, I could have a crate made out of tissue paper with mine as they are used to the crate idea and are not prone to freaking out in their beds.
For the smaller car, you might look at a harness or something that latches into the seatbelt. It would probably be easier to deal with than a crate.
Putting the dog in the back of the pickup truck (even in a crate) may be quite hazardous to the dog. I’ll let others weigh in on that. But if you can afford both crates, why not get both? Have one for travel only and one for in-house use. (And, quite frankly, if finances are stretched enough where two crates are not an option, you might want to reassess whether you are financially capable of caring for a dog. A single vet emergency can cost a lot more than a crate.)
As far as the size/weight guidelines, the rule is that a crate should be only big enough to let the dog stand up, turn around, and rest lying down. Bigger crates can frustrate housebreaking, because the dog can do their business in one end and still keep the rest clean. Housebreaking may already be hard enough with a dog that has lived outside and gotten used to just going whenever she wants.
I see on preview that jeevwoman has weighed in on our experiences with dear Willow. It’s true that Willow bent out the bars of her crate. However, I at least believe that it was because her brother was out there with run of the house, and she was trying to get at him to play with him. (Her brother is reliably housetrained and extremely crate phobic.) A solitary dog hopefully won’t have the same kind of issues. Leave a radio on for her so there’s some background noise, and give her a Kong stuffed with goodies that she has to manipulate to get out, and she should be fine.
**Jeevmon ** - yes, we can afford both types of crates but since we’re only getting her on a trial basis initially, we don’t want to invest in TWO crates until we know we’re keeping her.
And as I’ve said, the housebreaking isn’t really the issue, it’s more of a matter of giving her her own ‘place’ so no matter where we go, she feels secure and safe and comfortable. That’s why I was thinking the bigger, the better, because she’ll be able to stretch out and get comfy.
CrazyCatLady - thanks for the input re: the size of the crate, vs. the size of the dog. I’ll keep it in mind when shopping!
