Ordering a well-done steak: Unsophisticated?

[Shalmanese]

@Guinastasia

Yeah, but unlike a painting, however you cook something, it’s still gonna end up the same way: as shit.

If the “artist” doesn’t want to mar his “canvas”, then he should only paint for himself, not for other people. Sometimes you have to compromise, for the sake of practicality.

I like my steak medium rare to medium. Nice and juicy. Someone else likes their steak burnt to a crisp. Oh well, their tastebuds, their decision. Both steaks will end up in the toilet, either way.

My family thinks I’m weird because I like my bacon half raw, and they, like most people, like it crispy. I like it nice and tender. (I’ve found that turkey bacon is best in this case-it’s easier to cook)

Life is too damned short to worry about being “sophistocated.” Eat what you like.

Why go on a holiday? your just going to end up home at the end. Why buy land? It’s eventually just going to slide into the ocean.

Theres a very objective way to distinguish between snobbery and sophistication, it’s called the double blind study. If a person can consistently and reliable distinguish between different grades of variations of a product, then the difference is real and objective and not a social construct. If a person is unable to tell the difference under a true double blind yet still insists that a difference exists, then it is pure snobbery. If they are unable to tell yet make no claims that a difference exists, then they are unsophisticated about that particular area. Again, sophistication isn’t a virtue that must be strived for any more than being able to wiggle your ears is a virtue. It’s simply an ability that some people have or choose to have and others do not.

[devilsknew]

@Shalmanese

Why go on a holiday? your just going to end up home at the end. Why buy land? It’s eventually just going to slide into the ocean.

Theres a very objective way to distinguish between snobbery and sophistication, it’s called the double blind study. If a person can consistently and reliable distinguish between different grades of variations of a product, then the difference is real and objective and not a social construct. If a person is unable to tell the difference under a true double blind yet still insists that a difference exists, then it is pure snobbery. If they are unable to tell yet make no claims that a difference exists, then they are unsophisticated about that particular area. Again, sophistication isn’t a virtue that must be strived for any more than being able to wiggle your ears is a virtue. It’s simply an ability that some people have or choose to have and others do not.

Yes, but you are a tree frog.

There are five flavors that we can all settle on, your experience may vary.

[galienne]

The doneness of my meat depends on the quality. I grew up in my grandmother’s house, where on occasion she’d buy a London broil and broil it into blackened oblivion. I still enjoy my London broil this way for sentimental reasons.

The rarest I’ll order my steak is medium. I know it’s supposed to be better as it gets rarer, but I need my steak completely warmed through, and if it’s too soft and squishy in the middle, it slightly freaks me out, to be honest with you.

Am I unsophisticated? Probably. Who knows.

[kaylasdad99]

Ordering a steak “well done” is a good way to guarantee that I will not be approaching your table with a napkin tied around my neck, pointing to the meat and asking “Are you gonna finish that?”

Such craftiness should be considered highly sophisticated, as I tend to be an extraordinarily persistent man.

[Miller]

@D_Odds

Reading this made me thing of the movie Big Night with Stanley Tucci and Tony Shaloub. Shaloub was Primo, the chef. Food was a canvas to him. Tucci was Secondo, the younger brother who wanted to make his mark in America. He was more pragmatic about the business. Primo’s cooking was his art. Just as one wouldn’t tell Da Vinci or Monet how to paint, one shouldn’t tell Primo how to cook. Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but don’t ask the artist to mar his canvas simply because you have a different vision of beauty than the artist.

If I’m paying Leonardo for a painting, I can damn well tell him what to paint, and he’d better do it the way I want it if he expects a paycheck. A chef may be an artist, but in a restaurant, he’s a comissioned artist. And his comission is to give the patron what he wants, not what the chef thinks he should want.

[Guinastasia]

@Shalmanese

Why go on a holiday? your just going to end up home at the end. Why buy land? It’s eventually just going to slide into the ocean.

Theres a very objective way to distinguish between snobbery and sophistication, it’s called the double blind study. If a person can consistently and reliable distinguish between different grades of variations of a product, then the difference is real and objective and not a social construct. If a person is unable to tell the difference under a true double blind yet still insists that a difference exists, then it is pure snobbery. If they are unable to tell yet make no claims that a difference exists, then they are unsophisticated about that particular area. Again, sophistication isn’t a virtue that must be strived for any more than being able to wiggle your ears is a virtue. It’s simply an ability that some people have or choose to have and others do not.

If I get more enjoyment out of staying at home, I will. Likewise, those who get more enjoyment out of having their steaks served well done do so.

@Miller

If I’m paying Leonardo for a painting, I can damn well tell him what to paint, and he’d better do it the way I want it if he expects a paycheck. A chef may be an artist, but in a restaurant, he’s a comissioned artist. And his comission is to give the patron what he wants, not what the chef thinks he should want.

Exactly! Thank you. If you don’t like cooking steaks well-done, don’t get a job at a restaurant.
I don’t even claim to be sophistocated, at least not when it comes to steak. I just like what I like.

See, to me, it isn’t about being sophistocated, it’s about having style. If you like your steak blackened, don’t appologize! Eat it with zest!

[John_F]

@Miller

A chef may be an artist, but in a restaurant, he’s a comissioned artist. And his comission is to give the patron what he wants, not what the chef thinks he should want.

I’ve been to restaurants that serve only what the chef wants the way he wants to make it. It’s not for everybody and let your dollars be your vote but the place was always packed.

We would show up and they would tell you what that days menu was and it would normally be two choices but sometimes three. The entree was paired to a salad and appetizer (no substitutions)…Don’t remember about the salad dressing but I think you had a choice on that.

I wouldn’t even call it “expensive” just a bit more than big chain family restaurants but the food was outstanding. We knew that it was chef’s choice and were never disappointed. In fact it was fun in a way to just trust the chef, and he did deliver.

I’ve also been to an Italian restaurant where the chef visits every table; he is very animated and is likely to start screaming at the help at any moment. I have seen him order a table to be broken down and entirely reset because some fork was out of alignment from how he wanted it. We accidentally left with the wrong copy of the receipt and he stopped me in the parking lot to say that it was lucky for the waitress he caught us otherwise he would charge her $50 for giving us the wrong one. The place is expensive, packed, and has outstanding food. You cannot tell the chef that you want something differently than he thinks it should be. If you do you are out of there faster than the soup Nazi rids “troublemakers” from his place. No joke. You don’t have to go there and as a matter of fact we don’t anymore because of the way he treats his staff but if not for that we would go no matter that he is such a primadona. You do get to pick from a limited menu but then you turn it over to him.

[lissener]

@Guinastasia

Exactly! Thank you. If you don’t like cooking steaks well-done, don’t get a job at a restaurant. . . .

That’s not always the way it works. Sure, it works that way at Outback, or places like that. But if it’s really a chef’s restaurant, then YOU shouldn’t be there unless YOU like the way this chef cooks. Otherwise, get thee to Outback.

I’m an adventurous cook: I don’t like making the same recipe twice, and I like to make up my own recipes as I go along. For me, it is EXACTLY analogous to an artist, and that’s the analogy I use all the time. See, I’m a painter too, and I approach food exactly the same way I approach painting: each dish is a unique opportunity to express myself, only I’m using food instead of paint. (I don’t always cook like this; I’m just saying I ENJOY cooking like this. Sometimes I make pizza or beef stew or mashed potatoes; but sometimes I make rhubarb salad or chocolated duck.)

A lot of my friends like for me to cook for them. We set a date and a place, the friends chip in for grocery money, and I go to the market and see what looks interesting. Then we all sit around and sip wine and listen to music and argue about politics while I “paint” with the food. THen we all eat and discuss the food for a few hours. I really, really enjoy doing this, and my friends really seem to enjoy it too; they keep financing it at any rate.

People are always telling me I should open a restaurant, and cook the same way: no “menu” to speak of, just a nightly experiment based on what’s good at the market. If you were to come and dine at such a restaurant, that’s the experience you would be paying for. That’s the experience I would be selling. If someone came in and said, “I don’t care what’s on the menu, make me a steak,” I would politely suggest another restaurant for them. They ain’t buying what we’re selling. Even if the ordered a steak exactly how I’d cook it, I would politely send them away.

Now, my fantasy restaurant is an extreme example. And I’m not even convinced it would make any money. But there are many restaurants that work on a similar model: it’s the chef’s artistry that sells the place. If you’re there, it better be because you like the way the chef cooks things. He/she is NOT your hired hand.

There are plenty of places you can go to gain steak satisfaction. But going into a “chef’s” restaurant, and boorishly insisting on ordering the chef around, is simply inappropriate behavior. Go where you’ll be satisfied.

In other words, people who like their steak well done should go to places that are proud to serve their steaks well done, and avoid the places that aren’t. Would you commission a painter, and then demand he make you a sculpture? Would you commission, say, Georgia O’Keeffe (I know, she’s dead, just sayin) to paint a mural of a thousand Marilyn Monroes?

I knit sweaters on commission. People pay me $1,000 and up for me to make a sweater for them because they like the sweaters I have made. I design each sweater as a one of a kind. But if someone commissions me then hands me a picture from a magazine and says, “make me a sweater like that,” I turn down the commission and refer them to someone who knits to order. It’s a win-win solution: they get the sweater they want, and I’m not stuck making an ugly sweater. I’ve never had someone shove the money under my nose and INSIST I make then an ugly sweater. They either thank me for the referral and move on, or they put the magazine picture away and let me “do my thing.” (I have never had anyone be anything less than thrilled; I’m pretty good at reading tastes.)

You guys all act like the Magic Christian; like paying for a service gives you the right to be a jerk. Sorry, that’s just not how it works.

[fessie]

@Miller

If I’m paying Leonardo for a painting, I can damn well tell him what to paint, and he’d better do it the way I want it if he expects a paycheck. A chef may be an artist, but in a restaurant, he’s a comissioned artist. And his comission is to give the patron what he wants, not what the chef thinks he should want.

Bzzzzzzzt. Nope.

I do commissions all the time. Now, granted, they’re on a really microscopic scale, $10 for a portrait that takes 5-10 minutes, but still. Nobody ever tells me what to draw or how. Well, except for downplaying features that they’re self-conscious about, nose or freckles or double chin; but that’s part of the nature of portraiture, you have to love your subject just a little.

Anyway, I don’t take “orders”. Every piece I do is different - most of them are stylistically nothing like the samples on display. And if they don’t like the result, they’re free to refuse it. I’ve kept 4 drawings that I can recall, out of at least 400 that I’ve done.

If you’re hiring someone to do what you want, that’s not an Artist, that’s a skilled tradesperson. Or a lackey, depending.

I love Big Night.

And ketchup.

[Odinoneeye]

I’m the medium rare type, I like it warm all the way through, but juicy.

I find that people who like it well done always have to cover it with A-1 (which I can’t stand). I figure it’s because they need something to keep it from being too dry.

Disclaimer: I’m sure there are many of you who like well done steak and don’t use sauce. It’s just something I noticed.

@kaylasdad99

Ordering a steak “well done” is a good way to guarantee that I will not be approaching your table with a napkin tied around my neck, pointing to the meat and asking “Are you gonna finish that?”

Such craftiness should be considered highly sophisticated, as I tend to be an extraordinarily persistent man.

That was why I always covered my french fries with ketchup in college instead of just making a pool. It kept french fry stealing down to those who liked ketchup.

[John_F]

@fessie

If you’re hiring someone to do what you want, that’s not an Artist, that’s a skilled tradesperson.

Not even then if they are actually skilled. You pay them for their expertise, and it’s a situation where the customer is very often not right.

[lissener]

@fessie

Bzzzzzzzt. Nope.

I do commissions all the time. Now, granted, they’re on a really microscopic scale, $10 for a portrait that takes 5-10 minutes, but still. Nobody ever tells me what to draw or how. Well, except for downplaying features that they’re self-conscious about, nose or freckles or double chin; but that’s part of the nature of portraiture, you have to love your subject just a little.

Anyway, I don’t take “orders”. Every piece I do is different - most of them are stylistically nothing like the samples on display. And if they don’t like the result, they’re free to refuse it. I’ve kept 4 drawings that I can recall, out of at least 400 that I’ve done.

If you’re hiring someone to do what you want, that’s not an Artist, that’s a skilled tradesperson. Or a lackey, depending.

Zackly. If you hire an artist, you better have chosen that artist because you ALREADY like their work, and you want them to do more of their work, only for you.

But every artist, being, you know, people, is different. Some artists are more open to input than others. If you’re going to commission an artist, it’s better to find a good match than just to hire any old artist and then DEMAND satisfaction.

I’ve had clients like you, Miller. But not for long.

I recently dumped a client who’d hired me to design holiday decor for their retail stores. I spent a month collecting samples, doing sketches, etc. At our first meeting on the subject, the client PUT HIS HAND IN MY FACE, like “stop in the name of love”-style, WENT “SHH!”–I kid you not–showed me an UGLY picture from like Family Circle or something, and said “Do it just like this.” UGLY; cheesy; fake ugly styrofoam snowmen with gumdrops and toothpicks UGLY. Then he said, “Also, I need you to print up some flyers and put 'em in people’s mailboxes.”

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

This was on a retainer fee. If the flyer time had been extra billable hours, I’da thought about it. But I had been hired on a monthly retainer to provide display designs.

Needless to say, I no longer serve that particular client.

[cstamets]

@lissener

I knit sweaters on commission. People pay me $1,000 and up for me to make a sweater for them because they like the sweaters I have made. I design each sweater as a one of a kind. But if someone commissions me then hands me a picture from a magazine and says, “make me a sweater like that,” I turn down the commission and refer them to someone who knits to order. It’s a win-win solution: they get the sweater they want, and I’m not stuck making an ugly sweater. I’ve never had someone shove the money under my nose and INSIST I make then an ugly sweater. They either thank me for the referral and move on, or they put the magazine picture away and let me “do my thing.” (I have never had anyone be anything less than thrilled; I’m pretty good at reading tastes.)

There’s a difference in turning away a customer because you don’t wish to serve his particular wants, and giving a customer a substandard product simply because you dont approve of what he’s asking for. You wouldn’t take someone’s $1000 for an ugly sweater and then half-heartedly throw something together.

If I go into a restaraunt and order a steak well done, and the chef wants to come out and tell me he doesn’t cook steaks well done and I should go someplace else, that’s fine. That’s fair and honest and I can accept that. I will probably never go back to that place, but why would he, if he’s not going to give me what I want anyway.

But if the chef is going to pull out a lesser piece of meat, assuming I either won’t know the difference or I don’t deserve the better meat because I’m “unsophisticated”, that’s just plain wrong and dishonest. If I’m paying the same price for my well done steak that the guy next to me is paying for his medium-rare, I better get the same quality of steak. Anything else is fraud.

[lissener]

@cstamets

. . . But if the chef is going to pull out a lesser piece of meat, assuming I either won’t know the difference or I don’t deserve the better meat because I’m “unsophisticated”, that’s just plain wrong and dishonest. If I’m paying the same price for my well done steak that the guy next to me is paying for his medium-rare, I better get the same quality of steak. Anything else is fraud.

Still, nuh uh.

If a chef has 12 grade AAAAA (or whatever) NY steaks, there is still going to be some individual variation. They’re not manufactured within particular tolerances, or anything. He’s going to serve the best OF THAT BUNCH in a way that takes the greatest advantage of its individual qualities. And if an order comes in for a well done steak, and many of those unique qualities would just be WASTED by cooking them out of the steak–destroying them–then the chef would be an IDIOT to pick the best of the bunch to serve well done. Understand: the distinguishing qualities are going to be ELIMINATED by the cooking process. In other words, if you took the BEST grade AAAAA steak, and the 12th best AAAAA steak, and cooked them both well done, THEY WOULD BE ENTIRELY INDISTINGUISHABLE. However, if you made them both rare, the best one might be slightly better, in some theoretical way, than the 12th best one.

Do the math; which scenario just MAKES SENSE?

No one is suggesting that a chef keep AAAAA steaks on hand for rare, and DDDDD steaks for well done. They’re just saying that a chef who has a lot of good meat will carefully choose the APPROPRIATE steak for each order.

Where’s the fraud?

[lissener]

@cstamets

. . . I better get the same quality of steak. . . .

In other words, you ARE getting the same quality of steak: you are getting a grade AAAAA steak cooked by the chef that YOU CHOSE in the manner that YOU SPECIFIED.

You’d have a case if he served you grade DDDDD while he served medium rare AAAAAs, but no one is suggesting that.

[chaoticbear]

@cstamets

But if the chef is going to pull out a lesser piece of meat, assuming I either won’t know the difference or I don’t deserve the better meat because I’m “unsophisticated”, that’s just plain wrong and dishonest. If I’m paying the same price for my well done steak that the guy next to me is paying for his medium-rare, I better get the same quality of steak. Anything else is fraud.

No, we’ve covered this. They’re the same cut of steak. They’re the same grade of steak, whatever they’re graded as. The chef may determine that some of them don’t look quite as delicious as the other. No matter what, there are going to be natural deviances in the meat.

Like if you’re making cupcakes. If someone asks for one without frosting, you’re going to give them the best-looking one of the group. They’re all basically the same cupcakes, but when you cover the other ones with frosting, no one is going to notice that they cracked a little bit in the oven or whatever.

[pulykamell]

@John F

Not even then if they are actually skilled. You pay them for their expertise, and it’s a situation where the customer is very often not right.

I agree. It all depends on what one’s relationship with food is, and what one expects from a restaurant. For example, I pretty much only go to restaurants for the experience. I can cook most things I want for myself. When I go out to eat, I generally want something new. Whenever I visit a new restaurant, I only glance at the menu and simply ask the wait staff to give me whatever the chef recommends. Hell, he should know better than anyone else in the joint what the best food for the day is. If the chef says the fish is best served still alive and squirming on the plate, then by God I’ll trust him. After all, this is (usually) why I go out to eat. I give my complete trust to the professional.

The customer is always right is bullshit. Or maybe that’s too strong. There are places to go where the customer is the complete focus, and there are restaurants to visit where the chef’s vision is the total focus. Both places will have always plenty of patrons. If you’re not happy with one camp of restaurants, go to the other.

For example, I, as a photographer, offer a very specific set of services. I will not do any job just because you’re paying me. I’m not your monkey. I do what I do. If you like what I do, you pay me to do it, and I will do it my way, and I will do a damn good job. If not, find somebody else. I don’t pretend to be the right person for everyone. And I feel chefs who are comfortable with their work and are interested in selling their culinary vision feel much the same way.

[lissener]

@pulykamell

. . . I will not do any job just because you’re paying me. I’m not your monkey. I do what I do. If you like what I do, you pay me to do it, and I will do it my way, and I will do a damn good job. If not, find somebody else. I don’t pretend to be the right person for everyone. . . .

Can I put this on my business card? I may call myself “Not Your Monkey Inc.”

[devilsknew]

These last several arguments are ridiculous and specious. In a real restaurant, from the worst to the middlin’ to the finest, orders are sent back all the time for being underdone or any other host of reasons. Either by the mistake of the chef or out of customer preference. As a general rule in Classical Western Cuisine people do not like raw or undercooked meat. Would you send back rare chicken? rare pork? I would, and I have no doubt that many rare steak eaters would as well. I would also expect the chef to correct my order, perhaps begrudgingly, but nonetheless prepare it to my relative standards and satisfaction.

Why the double standard with steak? Many people do not like raw meat for any number of sensual reasons. It can actually be a horribly unpleasant experience for some. Even if I had the finest restaurant and prepared a chef’s menu I would not want my customers to have an unpleasant experience in my restaurant and would accomadate them in any way possible. That after all is my real job and all of my success would hinge on that- satisfied customers and hence, returning satisfied customers.

I really don’t mind raw meat, but I’m glad that I have a choice in how my steak is prepared because I prefer it well done. It was my Mom’s job to dictate what I was going to eat and how I’d like it, not some asshole prima donna that I’m paying good money to. The privelege is the chef’s, not the customer.

As I said earlier, I love raw pork but I don’t expect, or worse yet, demand that you are unsophisticated for not sharing my taste for pure, unadulterated, oink! And if you think that raw pork is unsophisticated then you are simply applying a provincial, and in itself, unsophisticated standard.

[pulykamell]

As I said earlier, I love raw pork but I don’t expect, or worse yet, demand that you are unsophisticated for not sharing my taste for pure, unadulterated, oink! And if you think that raw pork is unsophisticated then you are simply applying a provincial, and in itself, unsophisticated standard.

Raw pork is fine. I do like my mettwurst.

The fact is, there’s certain restaurants I go to where I want things done exactly my way. There’s other restaurants I go to where I expect things done the chef’s way. I pay more for the latter, because I trust the chef’s expertise and I expect him to present the food the best way it should be served. No. It’s not for everyone. Many people would think it a waste of money. I’m a person of modest means, but I will pay big $$$ for a good meal, because I care about the artistry of a meal. If you don’t give a shit, go to Outback. I don’t care. The chef doesn’t care. The restaurant doesn’t care. There’s enough people who do care about the chef’s vision, if you will, to keep it in business.