Orientals, Europeans, Indians, Africans,,,

Great Debates
101

China Guy. As I have tried to explain to you, over and over again, this is a visceral, personal issue. If you are trying to understand it cerebrally, you will never understand it. For me ‘Asian’ is innocuous. If someone uses it in the context of “God damn Asian drivers”, of course I will get offended.

I don’t even know what you mean by non-personal reason. Do blacks have to have a non-personal reason to get offended by the term “nigger”? What manner of non-personal evidence are you expecting? I really don’t know. Some sort of Supreme Court ruling? A Papal bull? Report by the Rand corporation? A finding by a Congressional fact-finding committee? Does it have to be printed in some book?

Let’s try a different tack. China Guy wants non-personal reasons why ‘Oriental’ should not be used. China Guy does not use the terms ‘Gook’, ‘Chink’, ‘Nip’, ‘Jap’ & ‘Slope’. Logic states that China Guy would have non-personal reasons why those terms are offensive. Here is my challenge to you: Show me the NON-PERSONAL reasons why these tersm are not used.

102

To any Asian-American Pacific Islander that truly feels the word “or**ntal” is equivalent to “n*gger”, then I apologize. I disagree, but it’s a free country, and I am sorry for offending you. I would also thank those posting for challenging a long held assumption I have regarding the word oriental, in particular nekochan and archmichael.

If anyone is still reading this thread. I would share a few thoughts. As stated in my first post, when I graduated from the University of California, Davis in 1985, this was not an issue. Since I was very involved with studies, things and people Asian at the time, you’ll just have to take my word for it that if this came up I would have known about it. Growing Asian-American awareness was taking place but it certainly was not directed at the term oriental. I have lived in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan and China since then so I missed whatever debate occurred within the Asian-American community regarding the word oriental. Based on a lot of comments on various boards and personal experience with friends and acquaintances, a lot of people have missed this debate.

IMHO the words “oriental” and “asian” both have and still today have been used in perjorative and racially stereotypically ways. The phrase Asian-American (now expanded I believe to be Asian-American Pacific Islander) was "adopted as the correct usage. Certainly, all of the on-line style guides say to use asian-american. Why? Perhaps despite negative stereotypes with both words, “Asian” seemed at lot more acceptable, perhaps the term “Oriental” was already used less frequently, and perhaps simply “Asian-American” sounds better. Despite a lot of digging, I haven’t found any more than this.

Now for a gross generalization, somewhere between the mid 80’s and now, “oriental is a rug” became a catch phrase. This is not a dictionary definition although it may be found as a word usage example. Also, I have seen mentioned on the net where “oriental” is equivalent to “negro”, and I do not necessarily disagree. However, with most catch phrases, it has been mindlessly repeated and changed where some people mention “or**ntal” and “n*gger” as equivalent words. An example, from which yo may draw your own conclusions can be found here ( sorry, I don’t know how to link. See thread Meeting of the PC Police http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=72357).Regardless of intent, mentioning both words in the same proximity MAY cause a reader to ASSUME there is a connection.

IMHO these catch phrases demonize and trivialize the word “Oriental”. IMHO, these catch phrases are self-perpetuating, and the word “Oriental”, which was already naturally being replaced by “Asian” has become much greater than it was. A logical extension of this trend will eventually see all uses of the word “Oriental” purged from the US lexicon. Legislation was introduced but not passed in Oregon regarding expunging “Oriental” from State documents. A futher extension and eventually companies and institutions in Asia will be forced to changed their name because who in their right mind would stay in the 5-star Mandarin Oriental hotel? If that comes to pass, I would call that a pretty sad statement and US cultural imperialism.

I look at this issue critically because I consider myself a free thinker; spent god knows how many years learning Asian languages, culture, martial arts and history; make a living introducting foreign companies to the Chinese market and raising funds for Chinese companies; am married to a North Asian; have a daughter by citizenship and blood who is Asian.

I consider myself on the Asian-American side of this issue, but damn it I still can’t answer this question: “Oriental is not a good term because some Asian-Americans find it offensive. Asian on the other hand is the proper term for the following reasons…”

103

For crying out loud, what’s wrong with the reason given throughout this thread: it’s the term that the people it refers to prefer. Do you honestly expect anything more than that? Could there possibly even be a better reason than that?

104

my 4cents worth (damn the Aussie/US exchange rate)

I asked my GF last night whether she minded the term ‘oriental’ (she’s Filipino), she said she preferred it to ‘asian’. OTOH as it appears some Asians here take offence to the term, especially those living in non-asian countries, that for me is reason enough to exclude it from my vocabulary.

105

There’s nothing wrong with replacing a word that many find offensive.

What irritates me is that some of the so-called reasons, which have been shown in this thread to be invalid, are widely promulgated. Those promoting the change ought to be honest and accurate.

106

like WHAT??? the reason cited most is ‘it is the term preferred by those who are referenced’.

we went over this over and over again, and frankly it was you of whom I thought when I posted that for some people, you could do a scientific poll of all people of that background, getting the result that x large percentage find ‘Asian’ to be the preferred term, have it certified and hand delivered and yet you’d still claim there’s no reason.

In that other thread, I gave you links to organizations specifically dedicated to people of Asian ancestry, that had been around for some 20 years or so, who called themselves “Asian”. In this thread, on the early pages, we see that major media sources have responded by largely replacing the term ‘oriental’ with ‘asian’ when referring to people.

What ‘so called evidence’ has been ‘shown to be invalid’. Give me a quote. (note, if you’re referring to 'gee, ‘asian’ can be as generalized as ‘oriental’, that’s neither evidence , nor a showing to be invalid )

107

E.g., a long time ago, Goboy wrote

I believe that many would fully agree with Goboy.

This thread has addressed the invalidity of supposed reasons:
– “Oriental” means “East”
– “Oriental” is Eurocentric
– “Oriental” covers a huge range of cultures

These three statements are true, and they are frequently cited as reasons for no longer using “Oriental.” However, the statements are also true of the word “Asian”, so they are not valid reasons for the change in terminology.

108

**

I never said “oriental” is equivalent to “nigger.” It’s not. Further, if I hear someone use “oriental,” I use some discretion as to whether or not I voice my preference for “Asian.” If it’s a WWII vet, for example, I just let it go. If it’s someone with whom I am having a friendly conversation, then I politely express my preference. No one, ever, has been upset by my saying this.

Let me reiterate - according to my experience, that word was very often used in conjunction with some sort of stereotype - e.g., “oriental women are so mysterious,” “inscrutable orientals.” Whenever I was taunted for racial/ethnic reasons, the terms used were “oriental” or “Chinese” (I am of Japanese descent). I also associate “oriental” with (at best) old-fashioned views, e.g. Kipling and Charlie Chan and Fu Manchu

I am not saying that I have been traumatized by this (lest anyone think I am “whining”, God forbid), I am merely explaining why I don’t like that term and prefer “Asian.” This appears to be the experience of most other people who prefer “Asian.”

I STILL don’t know why some people display a knee-jerk anti-PC response when they hear of this preference. This has nothing to do with whining and everything to do with simple freaking politeness. My Asian friends and I don’t discuss racism every day, or even every week or month, and we certainly don’t look for reasons to be offended. This is just something we prefer to be called, because WE HAVE HAD NEGATIVE EXPERIENCES WITH THE WORD ORIENTAL. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that? What is so “invalid” about that, december?

**

China Guy, did you read my post at the bottom of the second page that dealt with changes in the English language? To paraphrase, ideas and language change - this is true in ANY field…what’s the big deal?

**

I don’t think I can explain my position one more time without screaming… IN MY EXPERIENCE, the word Asian is neutral, just a geographic reference.

**

No, people stopped using Oriental in the first place because of its negative connotations. The increase of use of the word Asian did not cause Oriental to be stigmatized.

**

Ah, the old slippery slope strikes again.

Jeez…let me finish your thought. “Asian on the other hand is the PREFERRED term because people formally known as oriental (heh heh) want to be referred to as such. If you want to be polite, then use Asian. If you don’t wish to be polite, then don’t.”

If, as some posters have said, being teased because of your ethnicity is a part of life and something you need to “get over,” then abiding by the rules of polite society is also a part of life and something you need to get over.

109

Does Asian mean East? Is the word “Asian” Eurocentric? I’ve never heard this before…perhaps you can explain?

I do agree that Asian covers a huge range of cultures, and is therefore rather inaccurate, but for now it seems to be the best alternative. I am, however, open to suggestions. What should I be called, then?

This is how I see it. If someone really needs to refer to my ethnicity, I am Japanese. If someone really needs to refer to my nationality, I am American. The funny thing is, these things really aren’t important to my identity, but if people need to refer to my ethnicity and don’t want to ask me, they can call me Asian.

110

I’m not sure that Asian means East. I think one of the posts mentioned something about this.

(A separate reason for doubting that “Oriental = East” is a valid reason is that other directional terms have been used without offence, such as occidental, westerner, southerner, Western European, Eastern European, South American, etc.)

“Asian” is Eurocentric because it’s an English word. To avoid Eurocentricity, they could have chosen the word for “Asian” in Japanese, Chinese or some other Asian language. This has been done with some Native American names. E.g., Mount McKinley in Alaska is now called, “Denali.”

111

Too bad you didn’t read my entire statement, which said 'and if it’s that ‘asian is roughly the same thing as oriental’, that’s neither evidence or refuted, since the point is that the people who are being referred to prefer one to the other.

Since this was your only example of what you claim, and it has been refuted over and over and over again, I’d suggest that you either admit you are in error or submit other evidence.

112

Hi, wring, nice to hear from you.

I apologize if my post was unclear. I meant to agree with wring. As she says, “Asian” should be used because Asians prefer that term.

I was complaining that non-reasons are being promulgated by advocates of the change, although the real reason is fully adequate.

113

Ok, got it, thanks for the clarification, and I’ll retract any negative tangent that was there. :wink:

114

The terms “asia” “europe” and “africa” originated with the ancient Greeks. Anything north of the Mediterranean or Black Sea was Europe. Anything east of the Red Sea was Asia, and anything south of the Mediterranean and west of the Red Sea was Africa. Asia originally meant Asia Minor and the Middle East. The Greeks didn’t really know that Europe and Asia connected way up north of the Black Sea.

So, using the term “Asian” to refer to China, Japan, and Korea is quite a change from the original meaning. Well, meanings change.

But changing words doesn’t really change the concept. If racist thoughts and attitudes gave “oriental” a negative connotation, changing the name doesn’t change the attitudes. Sure, let’s be polite. But don’t expect racists to suddenly have a change of heart because they are now using a different word to refer to people they do like.

115

I guess you meant “do NOT like,” but anyway, I don’t think anyone is silly enough to think that the change in terminology will change racists’ minds. We’re just asking people to call us by a name we prefer.

116

Hey Nekochan, I just wanted to let you know that China Guy has taken his ignorance over to the Pit in this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=72357… Just in case you didn’t know. This ally of Asian-Americans, is still ignoring all the issues that everyone has brought up

117

Please be patient, and if you’re still reading this thread, then you’ve already proven that. And thanks to all the posters here who have patiently explained or otherwise challenged my view of the word “Oriental” and forced me to dig for answers. I have done extensive but by no means definitive google searches on “oriental versus asian” and related topics and found only a handful of sites, including http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US8/NOTES/adscolor.html. I have checked out many Asian-American websites and Asian-American Studies programs’ web sites but haven’t found a treatment of this topic. Was unable to locate why the Chicago Manual of Style changed the style preference from Oriental to Asian (there must be some sort of notation somewhere but I couldn’t find it). Several academics have explained they are not sure why, but that the word certainly has fallen out of favor. I have not found brilliantly worded dissertations, websites with 10 reasons why Asian is the preferred term, poll results of the Asian-American community, and absolutely nothing from the international community, etc. I located a single journal cite for “White Americans’ Attitudes Toward Asian Americans in Social Situations: An Empirical Examination of Potential Stereotypes, Bias, and Prejudice by Frederick T. L. Leong and Gregory Schneller but can not find the piece. Seriously, I expected more than what I’ve dug up and I haven’t seen many links on this thread that help. I will continue to search for more information.

Now you can go into all sorts of “occidentocentric” etymology regarding the word oriental, it’s origins, usage and perceived meaning. Collounsbury and Askia both alluded to this and I just didn’t get it earlier. Long story short “Oriental” at it’s basic level is either perceived or can be related to as a “COLONIAL” term. Despite latin roots, it was popularized as a British term during the British empire. Thus defining Asians as inferior subjects of the British Empire and other European imperial overlords. An Asian-American website administrator who earned US citizenship about a month ago, spent several long emails patiently explaining this.

Then I looked for examples of contemporary Colonial terms and behaviour. In both my personal and profession experience (and I grant that international investment banking is not a bastion of political correctness) with people from the UK, there certainly was a group that would refer to the “colonies” to my face, and unambiguously meaning the USA, in an extremely condescending manner. For example, the 4th of July is “Thanksgiving Day” because that’s when they got rid of the US. I found such behavior irritating because among other reasons I thought this particular “colony” question was settled in 1814.

WARNING: If anyone on the SDMB does this, I’m letting the cat out of the bag. Please see this link and look up “septic” http://www.byrne.dircon.co.uk/cockney/cockney3.htm

Many people from the UK refer to Americans as “Yanks”. In the US, we have our own complicated view of “Yank” and “Yankee” but that is not germane to this discussion. To explain, in rhyming Cockney slang “septic” is short for “septic tank”, “septic tank” rhymes with “Yank”, therefore “septic” = “Yank” = “American” and it’s not a complement in case you couldn’t tell.

There was a certain crowd of people I’ve met from the UK and they ranged all the way from basic working class to university educated professionals to upper class Sandhurst graduates over the years in many different countries who would take great pleasure in using “septic” to the oblivious Americans in their midst. The smiles, smirks, shared looks, and open laughter at bashing Americans to their clueless faces was the epitome of good humor. Many Americans have never understood this secret code word. I know how angry I get when this happens.

So put it in the proper context. Not only does “Oriental” define Asia in relation to Europe, but it is also a Colonial term. All summarizations are inherently inaccurate, but at least this one I can understand. I can even explain this issue simply to people like my father the WW2 and Korea veteren, and at least give some context to Asians in Asia that ask me on the issue. Apologies to all for taking so long to see the light, but it’s all about fighting ignorance.

Damn it, this is complicated. This works for the US and Asian-Americans, but what about the global community? We’ve heard from many sources that “Oriental” and “Asian” have completely different meanings/connotations among native English speakers in Canada, UK, Australia and Hawaii to name a few. In countries such as Japan, China, Taiwan, and HK there is no negative connotation with either word in English or the indigenous languages. A whole new word?