The wording of this phrase has always seemed unusual. Where did it originate and what were you orginally supposed to catch however you could?
It’s a term from wrestling. “Catch as catch can” as opposed to Greco-Roman, where there are no leg pickups or holds below the waist. “Catch as catch can” = grab whatever you like.
Cite.
More like free style, in other words. It derives from Lancashire wrestling.
Regards,
Shodan
Wrestling may have adopted it as a term, but I doubt that its origin has anything to do with wrestling.
It’s been traced in English back as far as 1393.
Here’s one definition:
I’m familiar with the definition, and also the wrestling connection, but I’m wondering if that’s the origin of the phrase. Like EM , I’m thinking it has to go back further.
But you asked, “what were you orginally supposed to catch however you could?” That goes against the very point of the phrase. There was nothing specific you were ever supposed to catch. It’s a “whatever” phrase. Whatever’s at hand; whatever works; whatever you’re able to do; whatever a temporary solution is. It’s: “I don’t know: just do something, but get it done”. Specificity is not part of it.
I was trying to use the words in the phrase. Like I said, I’m aware that the phrase has come to mean “Get it (whatever it is, by whatever means at hand.”
What I’m saying is that it didn’t “come to mean” that; it meant that from the very first day.
How on earth would you know that? Someone had to say it first (even if it’s now unrecorded) and presumably had a specific situation in mind.
Really. And did the first person to say “whatever” have a specific solution in mind, too? :rolleyes:
Interestingly the first usages seem to be equally mixed between sexual/romantic and wrestling. So it’s a case of deciding if this is a wrestling term that has been turned to describing romance, or a romantic term adapted to wrestling. Given the nature of Medieval Europe either one seems equally likely.
According to the OED the earliest occurence is a sexual/romatic reference from 1390 in “Confessio amantis”. “Thurgh the conseil of Balaam A route of faire wommen nam, That lusti were and yonge of Age, And bad hem gon to the lignage Of these Hebreus: and forth thei wente With yhen greye and browes bente And wel arraied everych on; And whan thei come were anon Among thebreus, was non insihte, Bot cacche who that cacche myhte, And ech of hem hise lustes soghte”
The next usage is from 1562 “Woorkes. A dialogue conteynyng prouerbes and epigrammes”.. This time it’s a wrestling reference “I’ll wrestle with any man for a good supper.” “Ay, marry, sir, I’ll take your part there, catch that catch may.”
Then we get “A dictionarie of the French and English tongues” from 1611. I can’t make out what this specifically refers to since I can’t find the original online. All OED provides is “Griffe, graffe, by hooke or by crooke…catch that catch may.”
The next reference, “The scornful lady” from 1610 is once more clearly romantic/sexual in context “Men, women, and all woo: catch that catch may.”
The remaining examples provided by the OED really don’t clarify much at all since they are essentially the modern usage.
But just to add some more compllication to the issue I’ll submit the earliest example I personally remebered of this phrase being used. From 1912 The poor and deserving prostitute Plays every night at catch-as-catch-can.
So by the 20th century we are right back where we started. The term is still being used ambiguously. It could be an outright sexual/romantic phrase. Or it could be a wrestling term being applied to sexual antics.
I know this post didn’t clarify anything, but now we are ignirant at a a deeper level.