Origin of English Surnames 'King' and 'Pope'.

I don’t want to make seem like I have very little of a life. But for literally years now I have been racking my brain for the meaning of the English surnames “King” and “Pope”. Most English surnames are obvious. Jackson means “Jack’s son”. Smith means some kind of a metal worker. Some are a little harder to decipher. For example, I once read Atwater means you were born “at the water”. Who knew?

I know King could have a number of possible meanings (that I at least have considered). You could be the illegitimate son or daughter of the king. Or perhaps you were “king” in some humble field, say tailoring. But Pope just has me completely flustered. The Church of England broke away from Rome with Henry VIII. Why would anyone in England be named Pope?

Thank you all in advance for your replies:)

“Pope” seems to come from either people who played the Pope in pageants, or who had a solemn appearnce. Cite. Remember, too, that England was Catholic until Henry broke from the church, so the name could easily have developed before that.

“King,” similarly, meant someone who acted in a kinglike manner.

If you were an illegitimate son of the king, the name “Fitzroy” was coined for you.

I read some time ago in a very reliable source that most royal names such as “King” “LeRoy” and so forth came from one of two sources. The first was from the pilgrimages to Jerusalem, where the first of the group to actually see the holy City was named the king. The second was from the numerous festivals that named someone king. A person who was appointed king for sevral years running tended to adopt the name king. Fitzroy derived from the same point.

Never before heard the suggestion that someone acting “kingly” was called king. I find it difficult to believe that all the FitzRoys were illegetimate sons of kings.

The names could also be derived from places that were named for Kings or Popes. “John of King’s Cross” could easily become “John King.”

I lived in Cameroon during a time when people were just beginning to pick up last names. It was a pretty fascinating process.

I don’t think you can pin down a single origin to any one last name, except the most obvious ones like “Smith”. I knew a guy who became “Bouba Appareil” because his eyes bugged out like a camera lens. I knew a man named “Amadou Voyage” because once worked at a bus company called “Lux Voyage.” No doubt their progeny are going to think their for fathers were great photographers and travelers.

So it could just be that the first Mr. Pope had a stupid hat that looked like the Pope’s. Or maybe he refused to sleep with the village harlot. Or maybe he once made a really funny joke about the pope. It could be he lived near the church. There could be a million reasons. These things come from local nicknames, not some plan to memorialize something deep for generations to come.

Also remember that plenty of people probably adopted the same name in different villages for different meanings. There are only so many common words used in a village context. Your Mr. King may have been a king, but my Mr. King once put on a paper crown at a bar and made everyone laugh so much they teased him about it for years later.

That’s pretty cool.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

A definite hijack, if you’ll forgive me: I’ve noticed the surname ‘Pagan’ in recent years - wouldn’t that have been a name to get one run out of town in more god-fearing days? I can’t see how it would be easily perpetuated. Maybe the Pagan clan were particularly purty…

The Pagans I’ve seen are of Hispanic heritage (Jose Pagan, Angel Pagan), so I don’t think the word means the same in Spanish (It seems to mean “Pay”).

BTW, the origin of “Fitzroy” as the illegitimate son of the king of England is documented and includes Henry Fitzroy (son of Henry VIII), Philip Fitzroy (Richard I), and Charles Fitzroy (Charles I). Basically, if the king acknowledged a bastard, the child’s name would be Fitzroy.

Note that names also converge from hard to remember/pronounce forms to easier ones. Someone might have been named “Kingle” and it got munged into “King” over time. They also might have been from “King’s Cross” or some such. What the name is now sometimes has little relation to what it was originally.

On my mother’s side, the last name is less-than-ideal looking. (A source of bad puns.) The original name came from a really cool looking family estate name. But once the illiterate/poor/immigrant generations got thru with it, it was no longer recognizable.

Your post reminds me of the two gay Irish men named Patrick and Gerald who took up residence together. They became known as Gerald Fitzpatrick and Patrick Fitzgerald.

I’ll be going now.