Orthodox Jews

Factual Questions
1

My little sister (she’s 18 and just started college) has been dating an orthodox Jew for about a year now. She’s slowly becoming more and more brain-washed by this guy’s family into living a more “holy” lifestyle.

I don’t have any problem with her becoming religious, but she’s refusing to use electricity on the Sabbath, is keeping kosher and won’t wear shorts. I’m sorry, but the whole thing seems like a bunch of nonesense to me. Hell, she’s even started to reject evolution in favor of creationism!

So, what I need is someone who’s an old testement/torah/Judaism expert. I want to present her with actual passages (or whatever) from these texts to show her that much of what these right-wing fanatics do (I think of the orthodox Jews much in the same way as the right-wing Christians, or, for that matter, the Koresh-type cults) are just interpretations of vague text or silly traditions that some rabbi thought up some 2,000 years ago.

I realize that it’s hard to argue science with someone who’s following blind faith, but I think it might work if I show her that much of the stuff she’s doing has little to do with the actual religion.

2

Let her make her own choices. Who are you to say Orthodox Jews are wrong?

Besides if she breaks up with this guy she give up being Orthodox on her own.

3

I eagerly await the sarcasmitosis-afflicted Dex’s response.

4

Kind of an unfair question to ask on a Friday, don’t ya think? Anyone who could defend him/herself against your outrageous slur cannot use the computer after sundown tonight. Nor can they use it tomorrow.

Since it’s after sundown in my time zone and I can’t allow this garbage to go unchallenged, I’ll give it a (less informed) shot. I’ll make some doctrinal errors here, but I won’t be directionally wrong, and it should tide you over until a more informed person can fill in the gaps.

You, sir, are a bigot. Judaism is, you may have heard, a very old and respected religion. Those Jews who stick to the old (orthodox) ways are keeping alive traditions that are thousands of years old and which they believe are orders from G-d himself. (I’m going to avoid the use of that entire word so as not to offend those who come upon this post later.)

There is no proscription on “using” electricity on the Sabbath. But most Orthodox Jews do not because it is virtually impossible to do so and obey the will of G-d. You see, from the most ancient times, Jewish doctrine insists that one neither start nor extinguish a fire on the holy day. Turning on or off a switch creates a spark, or a very short-lived fire. So any device which uses electricity must remain on or off for the duration of the Sabbath.

This is why many buildings on the lower east side of NY have “Sabbath elevators.” Starting at sundown Friday and running to sundown Saturday, the elevator automatically stops on each and every floor, and the doors stay open for an unusually long time. This allows observant Jews to get in and out of their apartments without offending G-d. If this were the biggest quirk in any religion, the world would be a much more peaceful place today.

It’s even more ridiculous for you not to understand keeping kosher. Do you compare Islam to cults because pork is proscribed? Or Hindus because they do not use the products of cows? Or pre-Vatican II Catholics because they avoided meat on Fridays? Well, the laws governing Orthodox Jews regarding meals are the same thing, only tougher. Hey, sometimes it’s difficult to please G-d.

And lots of religions have modesty rules. So get over it.

You said you needed “an old testament/torah/Judaism expert.” What you really need is a clue.

Livin’ on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

5

Hmmm… What about Orthodox Jews at the South Pole? Waiting for the sun to rise or set could take awhile there…

6

Well, I don’t get this…

If her mate was so into the Orthodox ways, he would not dare date goyim.

If he is not as fanatical about his religious devoutism, why is she getting that way?

Brian O’Neill
CMC International Records
rockuniverse.com/cmc/cmc.html

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Yahoo Messenger Brian_ONeill

7

My 2cents-
Prufrock (love your name, by the way)
Personal religious beliefs are just that. I understand you’re concerned, but this is one of those MYOB situations. It’s not hurting her or you for her to do these things, and she may be getting a lot out of this religion that you aren’t aware of.

PS- I know where you’re coming from- my Ex-husbands family was crazy about no birth control and no meat on Fridays, etc, etc- I thought they were nuts and they thought I was going straight to hell (I probobly am, but not for that) No amount of reason from me changed their minds- it’s just the way people are about religion. To each his own :slight_smile:

An optimist sees an opportunity in every calamity; A pessimist sees a calamity in every opportunity.

8

Yep! Your sister’s 18 Prufrock. She’s old enough to make her own decisions.
If she’s really in love with this guy anything you say against him will only build a wall between you and her.

9

… and a big l’shana tova to everyone (including you Prufock).

Is everyone ready for the Y6K virus? :slight_smile:

10

Well, it seems that many of the posters (well, only a couple, really) have forgotten the entire purpose of this bulleting board: WIPING OUT IGNORANCE!!!

I specifically requested that any person with expertise in the actual texts to provide me with actual quotes and passages some right-wing Jews were using to further their cause. If you want to label me a bigot. Fine. I really couldn’t care less. The fact remains, though, is that I AM Jewish, I just feel that the Orthodox and Hassidic Jews have bastardized the religion through interpretations of extremely vague text.

This is how the Christians have justified killing abortion doctors (not to mention the Inquisition, Crusades, etc…) This is how Muslims have justified acts of terrorism. Can you think of any religion that has not been used to justify violence or oppression at one time or another?

Religious extremeists find all sorts of ways to use their interpretations of text to justify their actions. I’m just looking for the actual quotes from the texts to present to her so that she can make an informed decision. I hate seeing her fall into a lifestyle that will ultimately force her into a subserviant role (as a female), where she ends up getting married at 20 to stay home and be a baby-factory.

11

If you’re really Jewish, you know that some sects of Judaism think the same of Reform Jews.

And which of the things you originally mentioned is a precursor to violent behavior? The dress code? The diet rules? The whole electricity thing? Come on, that’s a stretch and you know it. I suspect you’re just trying to justify going overboard in your OP.

O.K., now were into standard big-brother overprotectiveness. A laudable instinct which I share. This, IMHO, does explain going overboard in your OP. Two things:

First, one of the major tenets of feminism is choice. If little sis chooses for herself the subservience that goes with religious orthodoxy, that’s her call. If you respect her freedom, all you can do is be there for her if it turns out she made the wrong choice for herself.

Second, if there are any Orthodox Jews on the SDMB, you won’t see them till tonight, as I mentioned. But you’re likely to find responses from any party to be disappointing. This is because, as in most religions, the text exists to support the rules. At least from the perspective of the rule-followers. Just as observant Catholics believe that the Pope is infallible despite no mention of this in the Bible or early Christian texts, Judaism as practiced by the orthodox has its own texts. The rules (and later interpretations of the rules) lay out the procedures pretty plainly; your sister’s boyfriend’s family’s rabbi did not make them up. So yes, one rule or another may seem to you like a “silly tradition thought up by a rabbi 2000 years ago,” but to believers it’s doctrine.

And since its such an old religion, the rules are also hundreds or thousands of years old.

If you really believe that this is the wrong thing for your sister, ask your rabbi for spiritual assistance. But I think you’re gonna have to talk to her textual backup.

Livin’ on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

12

Well, Prufrock, I suggest that you go to either the Karaites or to Reform for assistance. I’ll even give you a Karaite URL http://www.karaites.org/index.htm that includes a snail-mail address and a phone number. I don’t have Reform contact information to hand, but since their synagogues sprout like mushrooms, I doubt that thirty seconds with the Yellow Pages will leave you empty.

“Kings die, and leave their crowns to their sons. Shmuel HaKatan took all the treasures in the world, and went away.”

13

I had brilliant comments all line up, until I got to the post that said that you yourself are Jewish, Pruf.

First off, you’ll never dissuade someone from Orthodoxy by quoting text at them. They will outquote you every time, and there are far more texts supporting their point of view than yours.

Second, please note that there are major distinctions between so-called “modern Orthodox” and ultra-right wing Hassidim. Basically, Orthodox Jews accept the validity of the Bible and all the rabbinic commentary. The body of laws (including commentary) is called halakha, and addresses almost every aspect of life – how to eat, how to wear clothes, etc. Orthodox Jews accept the unbroken line of tradition as binding. Conservative Jews believe that the line of tradition can be modified; Reform Jews don’t find the traditions binding.

For many Conservative or Reform Jewish families, sad to say, the idea of a son or daughter marrying into an Orthodox faith is repulsive. The opposite is also true, that many view marriage with Conservative or Reform as tantamount to conversion. The Nazis didn’t make such distinctions, and the mingled ashes of Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, secular, and other branches should be a constant reminder… but sadly are not.

OK, there are some Hassidic groups that are very cult-like and sect-like, hovering around a charismatic rebbe/guru, and cutting off relationship with the family. There are some groups that reject the existence of the State of Israel, for instance. Such groups are few and small in number; if your sister is thinking of joining one of them, you might want to consider some drastic intervention.

But if you’re talking mainstream Orthodox (whether traditional or modern), my opinion is that you haven’t got the right to interfere. To the contrary, you are better off letting her explore whatever avenues her heart leads her down… and let her come to her own conclusions. Your antagonism will only push her further down that path, for the wrong reasons. Support her in investigating, let her know your personal stance, but let her know that you respect her ability to make up her own mind.

I can guarantee that if you try to tell her that Orthodox is “silly” or “nonsense,” she’ll want to prove that you are wrong, and you’ll push her further in the direction you don’t want her to go.

Frankly, the things that you quote – traditional observance of the sabbath, keeping kosher, not wearing revealing clothing – don’t sound very objectionable to me.

14

Prufrock, I strongly recommend that you take Manhattan’s and CKDextHavn’s posts very seriously. What you need is not a source of texts that you can throw at your sister; what you need is a clearer understanding of exactly what you don’t like about what she is doing.

There was a great poster in my high school guidance counselor’s office:

I have always understood this to mean (translated to your situation) that you have no hope of changing your sister’s views simply by explaining your own. Rather, you should try to see things from her point of view, and then show her how according to her own value system, these things don’t make sense.

If you can.

15

Prufrock, I can only wonder what horrible experience has instilled in you such hatred for the traditional form of your own religion.

Orthodox Judaism, whether Hasidic or not, is not the “bastardized” form of the religion. It is the most purely distilled form of the religion. Every law or custom that Orthodox Jews follow can be pointed to in a book, which will in turn point to an earlier-written book, and so forth, until you get to the Talmud, which points to the written Torah (Bible). If you want to claim, based on your own conclusions, that the Torah is man-made and not divine, that’s your right, but who, then, is the one changing (I assume this is what “bastardizing” means to you) the religion…you, or those who continue to maintain that is it what is has been said to be for thousands of years?

Simply put, if you want to start a religion based on the Democratic Party platform, it’s your right. If you want to include “Judaism” in the name of that religion, there’s nothing that can be done to stop you. But don’t you dare accuse Orthodox Jews of “bastardizing” the religion. Ain’t nothing further from the truth.

As for your sister, how about asking her, in a non-confrontational way, why she’s decided that Orthodox Judaism is for her? Maybe then, you’ll be able to discuss the matter rationally, without the visceral reaction of disgust that you seem to be working from here.

Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@schicktech.com

“Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks.”
– Douglas Adams’s Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective

16

Look, I’m a gentile and a Christian, so I’m a little out of my depth here. (I’m also a kinda, sorta honorary Conservative Jew (long story), so I’m less ignorant than most, which is the only reason I’m speaking up in the first place.) I have one little question here…

Is it normal for Orthodox Jews to reject Darwin? If not, is it at least common? If not, is it downright unusual? If so, is it freaky?

John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams

17

Pru, remember your sister is 18. She’s still young and trying out new things, trying to figure out who she is. If you try the big brother routine on her, she’s going to fight to do what she wants to do which will be the complete opposite of what you want her to.

If you love, like I’m sure you must, sit down and discuss with her why she feels Orthodox Judaism is right for her right now, without putting in your $.02 on what you think about it. Maybe it’s providing her a structure she needs as she leaves the “nest” and starts off on her own. You might be surprised what you find out.

18

John W. Kennedy:

It’s normal for Orthodox Jews to reject the idea that life evolved (and continues to eveolve) by chance rather than developed by divine design.

Beyond that, there’s a huge range of opinion about evolution in the Orthodox Jewish world.

Chaim Mattis Keller

19

If she is leaping headfirst into religion because of her new boyfriend, there’s every chance that she’ll leap right out of it again after they break up–or, if they stay together, she will become more reasonable after the bloom is off the rose.

So all you can do is stay friends with her, don’t badmouth her boyfriend (what if she marries him?) and when you feel you HAVE to say something, go into the other room and say it to yourself. In two or five or even ten years, you and your sister will still be friends, and will probably be laughing about her brief “religious fanatic” period.

20

I must agree with BunnyGirl - she’s only 18. My sister is 22 and she went through every conceivable idendity phase imaginable - cheerleader, cowboy, conservative Christian, pothead-hippie, etc. She is now the manager of her husband’s horror-punk-ska band. Each time she changed hats, so to speak, it was due to the influence of whomever she happened to being dating. I wouldn’t worry about it too much just yet. Besides, she could be doing worse.
This is sort of unrelated, but so are most things I say. My husband’s son, who is 8, came to live with us 2 weeks ago. Yesterday, he asked to go to church (Methodist) with my mom. On the way there, they discussed the fact that he is a Jew. My mom asked when the last time he went to “Jewish church” was. “I didn’t know Jews go to church,” he said. My mom said yes, they are called synagogues. He said he’d never heard of that - he would asked “Hannukah Charlie” about it when he brought the Christmas presents this year.