And don’t forget step (3). That’s the one where you demonstrate that I misquoted you. I eagerly await your non-response.
Here’s one example of misquotation. He didn’t say that the WTC attack wasn’t good. He’s saying that the US has a tendency to rain down destruction on innocent civilians (see Bosnia, Iraq, etc.) but never says that this is terrorism.
I think mswas is pointing out a seeming double standard that says that its ok for us to kill folks, but if someone should try it again, well, that’s evil. I’m not saying this double standard applies to your thinking minty but it exists in some people’s.
That’s what mswas is saying. A lot of people have a difficult time grasping what these folks are willing to die for in this country. You are willing to learn, and that’s good. However, not everyone wants to do that. mswas is saying that we had better take the time to figure out what the hell we are doing to piss folks off, otherwise we can bomb all we want, and it’s just going to make more terrorists.
The only thing that gives me pause about this is that if we change policy quickly, then it makes it look like the terrorists were able to be effective with their attacks. That, I think, will just encourage more terrorists, since they see that it will help them get what they want. How do you reconcile this with the need to change certain aspects of our policy to help cut off the resentment that many people feel towards the US?
Good gravy, Neurotik, do you know what a “quote” is? My rhetorical question that you just raised–which responds directly to mswas’s facially absurd assertion that “this” is not "a black and white issue–is by no stretch of the imagination a quote.
<insert close quotation marks after “issue”>
OK, here’s the thing. We Americans tend to believe that the rest of the world is kind of like America, only poorer and dirtier. But it is not. Most countries in the world are dictatorships of one form or another. Some are open dictatorships, some are closed dictatorships. But we CANNOT treat these countries that same way we treat Canada, Britain, France, etc.
And about the Taliban human rights abuses. Everyone around the world has complained for years about the gross human righst abuses of the Taliban. Why didn’t anyone do anything about it until now? Because the only way to do anything about it was to declare war on the Taliban, and no one wanted to do that, until the terrorist murder of thousands of people. America cannot police the entire globe.
And can people make up their minds? Are we bad because we don’t support Middle Eastern governments or because we do? We support some, we are enemies of others. But every single Middle Eastern government is a dictatorship of some sort, so any sort of relations we have with any Middle Eastern government will be a relation with a dictator. If we should cut all ties to dictatorial countries then we must abandon the Middle East completely.
“If only we were nice to them they’d stop hating us!” Bullshit. Not true. They hate us because we are rich and they are poor, and they believe that we are rich BECAUSE they are poor. They have a medieval view of economics…that there is a fixed amount of wealth in the world, that economics is a zero-sum game, and therefore the only way to become wealthy is to cheat or steal from other people. And this is actually true in countries without the rule of law.
But it suits the dictators to blame the United States for the problems of dictatorial government. Pulling out of Saudi, abandoning Israel, stopping support for Middle Eastern governments…that will not stop the hatred, it will intensify the hatred. Just like the WTC bombing intensified their hatred of the US. Any action whatsoever would generate hatred of the US…trials and arrests, economic sanctions, commando raids, bombings.
Do you really think that the average America-hater would be satisfied if we somehow captured bin Ladin and put him on trial? Of course not, they would scream and shout that the trial was unfair, it was a kangaroo court, the evidence was manufactured. Even if he was tried in the Hague, since that is obviously a colonial puppet court. Even if he were tried by a Sharia court in, say, Saudi Arabia. Since Saudi Arabia is an American puppet the Saudis would manufacture whatever evidence was needed to false convict this hero of Islam.
Anything we do to bin Ladin will be vilified and hated, the Judicial model included. He is a hero to these people because he attacked the United States. They are GLAD that thousands of Americans died. “Thank God for that. Thank God for that.” Nothing short of surrender will satisfy them.
Lemur are you aware that a lot of nations that AREN’T poor little dictatorships resent our power and seeping Americanization in the world. Hell, look at this same board you are posting on and you will notice rants from Canadians, Brits, Australians, etc condemning US arrogance even before 9/11. The French don’t like our culture. The Germans don’t. Of course, they don’t resort to violence, but that resentment is still there.
And you are going to tell me that the US doesn’t dick over poor nations? Come on. We helped topple Allende in Chile and supported a brutal regime that disappeared thousands. Same in Argentina. Same in Vietnam. Same in Iran. Same in Brazil. The list goes on.
Look, I’m not saying that the 9/11 attacks were justified. Or that we’re not justified in doing whatever it takes to secure ourselves from attacks. I support effective military action. I support performing covert ops to secure our interests. I’m just aware that these often have negative consequences when it comes to how people perceive us. Your little tirade there shows that you really don’t understand other people’s points of views on this or what is happening in the world. This is why we need to open up an HONEST debate on the topic with no villifying people or straw-man tactics.
And yes, pulling completely out of the Middle East and leaving it to the lunatics to rule as they wish and not getting involved again in the affairs of the area (including Israel) would likely stop the attacks. But you know what? That’s unrealistic because of our economic interests and resources there. We shouldn’t pull out, but we need to examine our tactics and see if there’s a better way then what we have been doing.
mswas:
I went back and re-read you last post, as requested. I’d read it the first time. It doesn’t answer any of my questions. So, we’ll try again, and see if you can respond without calling me names or lamenting people not listening to you or understanding you.
YOU SAID, AND I QUOTE:
(Emphasis mine.)
That point being what? Be specific, please.
**
Such as what? Be specific, please.
And, before you answer that, I’d like to point out to you that if you bring up anything involving Israel or Palestine, neither Osama nor anyone in al-Quaeda was bringing them up at all prior to September 11.
I’d also like to point out that our investigators indicate the Sept. 11 attack was 3 to 5 years in the making. At the time it was in the works, the Camp David accords between Israel and the Palestinian Authority were in full swing.
You went on to say:
**
Agreed.
**
Agreed.
**
Agreed.
**
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
And what point or points would that be? Please be specific.
**
And I’m patiently waiting for you to outline what they are. Come on. Search Slate and The Nation, and other publications that think we should be self-loathing because we are rich and powerful. I’m sure you’ll find plenty we can talk about.
And, in the quote from you already made famous by minty green:
**
Actually, you’ve been asked repeatedly by several of us for you to think about it.
Sept. 11 isn’t something that’s black and white? Explain.
**
Yet again, explain to poor ol’ unenlightened me all of the shades of gray about what happened in the USA on September 11. And how America not considering it unequivocably evil and responding accordingly is inappropriate. And, SPECIFICALLY, why not?
**
In your opinion, is Hussein fucking over the Iraqi people? What should the USA do about that, in your opinion?
**
This is what I was supposed to go back and re-read, to have all my questions to you answered?
Nice try.
Your own words have been laid out for you here. My responses, and requests for additional information from you are listed. Don’t be a weasel.
Neurotik said:
**
What does this have to do with Sept. 11 being unequivocably evil, and the USA responding to it in such a manner being completely appropriate?
People who think like you are exactly the kind I had in mind when I made the pit thread with the O.J. analogy. By your logic, as you’re standing over Nicole Simpson’s mutilated carcass, you say, “Well, you know … she was kind of a slut. And she did piss O.J. off a lot.”
It’s positively vulgar.
Actually, I’ll be content if we protect our national security. Acting however we need to to do so. With the full support of virtually every government on the planet Earth, that we are acting correctly in our self-defense.
Nah. All we really need to do to terrorist networks that want us dead is kill them. It’s kill or be killed, and if that wasn’t pointed out to you on September 11, I can’t help you.
Now, as to the hostilities many people in that region of the world feel toward the West, that we need to work on as much as we can. As we shake hands on that dialogue however, let’s make a few points up front:
- We’re not abandoning Israel.
- Our troops aren’t leaving the Middle East until it can be demonstrated that a military presence exists there to hold back countries from invading one another.
- While we will help you with both humanitarian aid and economically as we pursue our interests, we’re not handing over our wealth to you out of some bizarre sense of guilt.
- We, particularly our women, will live our lives here in our country with all the freedoms and choices that we have always had.
Uh, no, you’ve got the sanitized version. The Agency was most definitely involved in pursuing, finding, and liquidating him. The agent in charge, however, did let a Bolivian soldier kill him.
The thought of the-now-lionized Che bumbling and fumbling his way across the Bolivian mountains trying to stir up revolution among peasants who merely looked at him like he was a world-class nut job still gives me a good laugh to this day. Guevara was a bloodthirsty maniac in revolutionary Cuba and knew nothing about the common man of Bolivia. His ramblings about the “New Communist Man” was a smokescreen for an agenda driven by pure ego. Let us not forget communism’s blood-soaked record in the 20th century.
I could have SWORN Castro had him offed.
Who knows?
I think we need to look at why these people, young kids-look up to Bin Laden-manipulation. Think about it-they’re told he’s fighting FOR THEM. It’s scary as hell-but we don’t combat it by screwing with THEM. We do it by PROVING HIM WRONG. By NOT being the Great Satan, by NOT treating the people like shit, and screwing them over. Honestly, it’s scary.
Brilliant, Sara. I think we need to look at the BIG picture-not US=GOOD/BAD MidEast=GOOD/BAD.
Care to explain how the U.S. treated Afghanistan like shit? And just to warn you, “We abandoned them after helping them kick the Soviets out!” carries no water with me, since leaving them alone is precisely what the Taliban claim they want us to do.
Wow Milo. What was I thinking? You’re right. I’m an unpatriotic prick who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. The loathing I have for my country is infinite. I think we should bow down to the terrorists and give them what they want since this is all our fault. Those people deserved to die on 9/11 because they were taking part in capitalism.
Oh wait. I’m sorry. I forgo that I had said
Repeat after me Milo…“I’m not even necesarily saying that we shouldn’t be going to war with the Taliban to do what is necessary to secure our security”
“to do what is necessary to secure our security”
Say it one more time to yourself. I fully support our actions agains the Taliban. But that doesn’t mean I’m so narrow-minded that I don’t understand what the world is really like. The terrorist actions were bad. They were evil. Innocents shouldn’t be killed. But you know what? It really is a matter of POV. Certain people feel that certain other people aren’t innocents. If you don’t realize that the world is one giant shade of grey and very few things occur without a cause, then I wish you luck on your life in magic, happy, rainbow, fairy land.
Wow yeah, I can’t believe I didn’t think about that. I’m surprised that the Israelis and the English haven’t thought about doing that to help some of their terrorists activities. Oh wait. No, that’s right. That is (or was in the case of Britain) their policy. AND IT’S NOT WORKING!
As wonderful as your overly simplistic “solution” is, it’s pretty much impossible to achieve. Why? Because it doesn’t take into account what people are truly mad about. People are mad that the US constantly rides roughshod over what they perceive to be their rights. I refer you to Iran, again.
I have no problem with us doing what is necesary to secure our safety and freedom. If it involves doing some unsavory things, fine and so be it. I’ll feel a little bad, but not much, because I recognize that that’s how the world works. But I also recognize that people don’t really like it too much, and the only way for them to get our attention is through terrorism. So what’s the real solution? How about in the future respecting people and their rights. Understand how they are likely going to react to things and take steps to blunt any negative reactions. The food and humanitarian aid along with the missile strikes is the right idea IMHO.
So before you start telling me how unpatriotic I am, or how vulgar I am, trying understanding what I’m trying to say before bearing your head where the sun don’t shine and start shouting out knee-jerk statements to things I’m not sure you really understand.
Sounds good to me. I haven’t advocated doing the opposite of any of those things.
This is what disturbs me most, I think - how can we possibly change this mindset?
An analogy would be the Civil Rights movement. Three hundred years of prejudiced thinking made any sort of positive change in the treatment of African Americans extremely difficult. The laws changed, some amendments were made, but has America’s attitude toward Blacks changed significantly? My parents, both in their mid-40’s, would be characterized as racist by most everyone here. My grandparents were extremely racist until the day they died, and no logical argument could ever change their mind.
Granted, many young people today are decidedly less racist, but the attitude still exists. And I think it’s going to be a long time until it’s annihilated completely. Because you can change the laws; you can lawfully ensure people, for the most part, behave in a certain manner. You can teach a different doctrine in school. But there are still going to be people who are prejudiced against Blacks.
The same prejudice exists in the Middle East toward Americans. It’s an US v. THEM attitude that pervades their governments, their religions, and their actions, both small and large scale. Whatever humanitarian actions we take will have ramifications, certainly, but not for a very long time, and we can’t be sure that they will be positive.
Also, when you have a country wherein it’s illegal to own a television, it’s pretty easy for the government to control the thinking of the people. The US bombs them? Because we’re evil. The US sends food? Because we pity them. There are plenty of ways for a totalitarian government to completely dominate the thoughts of its people, and determine what its citizens are thinking.
It’s really a catch-22 - what can we possibly do to please the Middle East, short of totally withdrawing all activity in the area or giving all of our wealth to them? (I believe that any form of “bombing them into the stone age” is unthinkable as a solution).
Clearly, I don’t have the answers. I’m as clueless as the next American. I just hope that Bush et.al. are considering these questions before deciding on their actions. Otherwise, I don’t see how any good can come of this situation.
**
And this, neurotik, is where we profoundly disagree.
Because whether the actions taken against America on September 11 were evil (or ‘totally wrong,’ if evil too much connotes religion to the non-religious out there) is decidedly not a matter of point of view. There is universal right and universal wrong. And that doesn’t change whether “certain people feel that certain other people aren’t innocents.”
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Milossarian *
**
No, sorry. That’s incorrect. There is subjective right and subjective wrong. People decide what is right and what is wrong. Not the universe. That’s why there all sorts of different cultural standards for right and wrong. If there were a universal right and a universal wrong we would see universal/homogenous morality.
You know, I think part of the problem here is in the phrasing of things. I am opposed to the sanctions in Iraq and I generally take the side of Palestine in the Israel-Palestine affair. In fact I have even helped to organise protests in the U.S. against policies which I don’t like. But when I hear someone say “Usama has a point”, it does seem vulgar to me. Can’t we just say, “Arabs have a point”? Or choose someone else, like Saudi Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal, who visited the World Trade Centre a few days ago, and say that he has a point? I think that whatever Usama’s points were, he has lost the right to have them considered. Anyway, he hasn’t even taken the blame for the World Trade Centre attack. What point is he making by blaming it on disgruntled American Jews?
If he had just bombed the Pentagon and then announced that he had done this in protest of the sanctions in Iraq, I would at least see what his point is. But he anonymously killed tons of people from lots of different countries, including Muslims and Arabs, who probably had nothing to do with American politics or American military, and I would hate for him to think that anything good came out of it.
The only way they are the same is by the tyrannical yet very hidden rule of the U.S. had on them. I am a U.S. citizen but who the fluck are we kidding haha. U.S. staged an attack on itself with Mexico like it did with the Native Americans, Talibans, Communist, Whatever word they changed it from to sound less tyrannical. They cleverly made a deal with a dictator (Bithc arse santa anna fluck-face. When Mexico was still IN THE MIDDLE OF A CIVIL WAR. Imagine if some deuchbags with great military power would attack the U.S. in the middle of our civil war? Would the U.S be able to rally after all it’s death and spent armories? Try to use whatever argument helps you sleep at night but at the end of the day. The Unites States is responsible for more carnage than the Nazis or the Red army did. The genocide and near extinction of Native Americans. The wars it starts with false flags starting with the Native Americans, Mexico, The Middle East twice(Fahrenheit 911 ring any bells?), and ending with possibly every other war we could have possibly started. You are either a wolf or a sheep. The U.S was smart enough to say they were Christians when they were sheep. Unfortunately for the wolf (The Native American at the time) They believed them. Would the world and the U.S be different? YES! for better or worse no will really knows. If you are a stupid sheep (Blindly following the crowd) then all I can say is congratulations should be judged accordingly (Ignorantly). If you are the wolf all I can say you jerk but at the end of the day someone will fill those shoes. You are just smart enough to know that with a bit of charisma you can takes those fools money. Honestly I think ignorant people are way worse than those in the wolf pack. Someone has to do it because like the good people there are bad in all cultures. Obviously I think the U.S is the lesser of two evils. Just please stop acting like angels or w/e good entities you think you are.
nm
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Zombie thread reported for trolling.
Daniel-
Welcome to the Straight Dope Message Board. I hope you’ll find some fun and interesting times here and that you’ll become a long term member of our community.
Unfortunately, this thread is fourteen years old - we’ve been here a while - and is unlikely to get much in the way of replies from posters who aren’t here anymore.
I’m going to lock this thread. Please feel free to start a new thread on a similar topic if you wish.
Again, welcome!