I don’t see any other camp here, other than that some are ready to put the dog down and others are suggesting trying a range of potential cures before doing so.
Did anyone say “just keep the dog and wear gloves”?
I got a male English Cocker pup for the family when my boys were 5 and 7, largely because I had one as a child and he was a fine, loving pet. I got Tanner from a reputable breeder, met the parents, saw the other pups, etc. I did all the necessary due diligence. Even so, he was a handful. I still remember standing in the backyard having an hour long battle of wills with him to get him to do his business outside. I have had dozens of dogs in my life and he was the hardest to toilet train of them all. I got the job done, but it took a long time before he was completely reliable. He was neutered at 12 weeks upon the advice of our veterenarian.
Tanner was also a nipper, and it wasn’t playful. He never evolved into full blown biting, because I couldn’t allow it with small children in the home. At 6 months, I sent him to a boarding trainer for two weeks. He came home a much different dog. I returned him to the trainer once per month for an overnight stay for the remainder of his first year to reinforce the training, and I watched him like a hawk, always reinforcing the training commands vigilently.
Tanner did wind up being a good companion to my sons. And he knew beyond a doubt that I was alpha dog in our “pack” and he respected me as such.
I would suggest getting your boy neutered directly, then send him to a boarding trainer if you can, or hiring a trainer to come to your home and work with you both privately. I don’t believe you need to give up on him, but you need to act soon and be willing to both assume the alpha dog role and be rigorous in following the training rules. He might not like you for a while, but in the end he will respect you and you won’t be terrorized in your own home.
I don’t think Michael Vick posts here.
^^^ This.
I’ve handled and rehabilitated problem dogs - every dog I’ve had in the last two decades is in fact a rehome of one sort or another, mostly ‘problem’ dogs. My current project is a 110# fear-biting / fear-aggressivel shepherd type, with attachement and resource issues and a serious bite history - and he’s MUCH easier than what you describe. I do not consider myself an expert, I’m merely experienced.
In the case of what you describe, there’s something ‘root’ happening, but what it is I cannot diagnose over the internet. Get that dog to a proper behaviorist or professional trainer whom specializes in biting dogs (get testimonials, and check them out - Not all trainers are what they claim to be). Do this SOON - The earlier you can get the right intervention, the less work you’ll have in the long run.
Also: Considier seriously the chance that you may not be able to help this dog - in which case, euthenasia may be the most loving thing you can do.
Anecdote: I HAVE been bitten by a Cocker, but it was entirely my own fault. She was a horrible wreck of an inbred dog, but that didn’t stop us from finding a mode that allowed everyone to live happily together. ‘Damaged’ dogs are frequently ‘recoverable;’ that’s not always the case thoough.
I’m also sometimes puzzled by threads where the reaction to biting dogs is so laid back. As said, it’s a huge liability. Although it does vary somewhat with the size and type of dog. Our current dog is a ‘pit bull’ type (not a pure breed anything but some predominantly ‘bully breed’ mix, pretty big and almost supernaturally strong for her size). If she showed the slightest inclination toward biting people without extreme provocation, no way would we have her. Professional trainers, shmofessional trainers: I wouldn’t be on the legal hook for their training working and sticking. Fortunately, she’d be about the last dog to bite a person (though any dog can be driven to it with extreme enough provocation): she’s obviously deeply hardwired against aggression to humans, welcomes strangers.
OTOH our previous smaller dog of less polarizing type could try to bite people in realistic scenario’s. Not that he’d go right off and bite anyone for no reason, but he was much easier to provoke, even unintentionally (esp. by rollerblading or skate boarding). We, first time dog owners then, tolerated that and just learned to control him. No real harm was ever done. I’m not claiming it was necessarily the wisest approach in retrospect, just contrasting to how obviously unworkable it would be if our current dog had the same personality.
It is grossly irresponsible to allow a dog which is known to bite off a leash in public. If you need this explained to you, you should not keep dogs. Have the dog put down immediately.
If it bites an adult in public, They should sue you into poverty. If it bites a child, You need to go to jail.
This. Nuff said.
ETA: Did not mean to include the part about putting the dog down immediately.
This is true. BUT…
This does not necessarily follow - it depends on what professional advice you get, your resources, and your willingness to do whatever is necessary (if anything is indeed possible) to protect the public, the dog, and yourself.
These are indeed potential consequences, though in reality, the likelihood of such extreme results is rather remote. Still, there are serious potential consequences - Get professional help soonest, as noted above.
I mean no disrespect, but your dog’s recall is poor. There are two types of dog when it comes to recall:
- Dogs who always come back
- Dogs that don’t.
Yours is #2, full stop. A dog that does not obey a command under distraction has not learned the command. The recall standard is 100 percent.
Your dog should never be off leash. Dogs cannot be permitted to bite people or other dogs; it’s completely inexcusable.
I do NOT agree that your dog should be immediately euthanized. The odds are pretty decent it can be trained, but you need to see a professional, and I would suggest to you that just reinforcement is not good enough; sometimes dogs need to be corrected, not that I am suggesting hitting your dog. But a truly skilled professional will show you how.
Having the dog neutered is of course necessary.
I don’t know what the situation is over there in England, but in the US shelters are bursting with lovely, well-adjusted, friendly dogs that are in danger of euthanasia just through bad luck. Your dog sounds like an irredeemable asshole. He’s got a screw loose. I would put him down, and get me a nice shelter dog who deserves to live.
I would say the only other option is to keep the dog on a leash and muzzled at all times when in public. I don’t think that’s in the dogs best interest though.
You may think the aggressive behavior has been cured, but it is not your safety you are risking and therefore it is not your call to make.
If you seek the advice of a professional who declares the dog safe, ask them accept legal responsibility for any injury it goes on to cause. I don’t believe anyone is qualified to make that assessment. The best indicator of whether or not a dog will bite someone is whether or not it has already bitten someone.
It is true that in the event that your dog bites someone, you are unlikely to go to jail or end up penniless, that is just what I claim should happen. What is not so unlikely is that the victim will be traumatised/seriously injured/scarred for life. It’s happened to multiple people I know, so I don’t think we’re talking about lightning-strike odds.
You definitely are in over your head with this dog, so like others, I suggest finding and working with a good trainer. Neutering may help, but it won’t fix him.
Look into NILF. Nothing in life is free. Consider what is a reward to him - going outside? He has to sit first, or down, or do a trick. Mix it up. Is he food motivated? Toy motivated? Engage his mind and work on his obedience. If he already knows the basics, then string together a couple of commands before rewarding. Teach more advanced behaviours - like a formal retrieve. Or heeling while you move backwards. Or tricks - sit pretty, spin, go to your bed…
Consider going back to crate training to deal with the house training. Check youtube for Crate Games videos. Get a strong solid crate that he can’t break out of. He will try, now that he’s learned he can escape. Have you cleaned to areas he’s soiled with an enzymatic cleaner to eliminate the odours that he can smell that say pee/poo here?
And finally, because you have the opportunity to run him off leash and only sometimes encounter other dogs, which is when you have issues, consider e-collar training. This will allow him to run, yet give you a means to reach out and touch him and reinforce the recall command. I know there are many people who consider e-collar training to be cruel, but if done under the guidance of an experienced trainer, it can give you the control you need, yet allow your dog freedom. It worked for me and my dog.
Good luck. Sometimes some dogs are just a bad match for one person, but may do better in another home. Sometimes they just aren’t right in the head. You’ve gotten a lot of good advice in this thread and I hope some of it helps.
Okay, well, let’s be fair; no one will ever do that because no one knows what’s going to happen after you leave the room. I don’t think my sister is going to drive her car into a telephone pole, but I’m not going to take legal responsibility for it; that’s a ridiculous risk to take with no upside.
In my years of dealing with varying dog breeds, I have to say that Cocker Spaniels are the dumbest breed to exist. I’m not sure they can be taught much of anything, other than to eat.
This is where expereience comes in - Agreed on the on-lead, and with muzzle, in public. That’s how my current project lives his life, and always will. He’s got one minor and one major bite to his history. In my experienced opinion, both were the fault of his previous owner. BUT - no matter whom is at fault, he Does. Not. Get. Another. Bite. Ever. Period. However it might happen, his next bite will be fatal - to him. So, when he leaves the property, he’s muzzled, and on lead. Indeed, taking him out is like tacking up a horse.
Whether or not that’s an acceptable and humane life is a judgement call that you have to make - A dog who lives a life of fear is a dog in misery. A dog with biological causes to behavioral issues may be miserable all the time. In the situation where it isn’t possible for the dog to have a happy, secure life in some manner, it’s more loving to put them down.
Correct - he’s a known biter - and YOU are responsible. The dog’s bite inhibition has been overcome, and the option to bite is always going to be in the dog’s list of options, no matter how thoroughly you re-script him.
A ridiculous ask. Don’t bother - No one is going to accept that, and you’ll make an ass of yourself if you do ask. YOU are responsible, and only you. The only thing a professional can do is give advice and training. You get to make the judgement call.
My current project dog will remain in my hands forever - or be returned directly to the breeder. Because he IS a liability and a risk. It’s not his fault he’s where he is, and he deserves a chance at a happy life, but if I cannot provide him the framework for a happy life, I will not take the responsibility for this loaded weapon of a dog landing in anyone else’s hands. Except maybe the breeder, whom shares liability with me - He called me, and engaged me to rehabilitate the dog.
Oh, and despite his magnificence, this dog is NEVER going to be bred - Innate fearfulness is HARD to breed out of a line, and I’ll never let it propagate to another generation, especially not in a dog this huge. Snip, snip.
ANY dog can bite. They have teeth, don’t they?
Draconian, much? There is a range of response, depending on what actually occurs. You go straight to 11, when most situations follow the usual distribution curve - and so should the remedies.
I don’t think anyone would accept that responsibility either, which is why I don’t think taking the dog to a behavioral professional is the best option. I have no faith in anyone to make a dangerous animal safe when there are no negative consequences for them making an error.
In your analogy, your sister is the responsible party. If on the other hand, you took her car to a mechanic to ensure it was safe to drive, and that mechanic failed to notice the brakes didn’t work. They would be liable for damage or injury occurring as a result of their negligence. This is the degree of accountability I would require before placing my trust in a professional to make any dangerous situation safe. You can accept lower standards when it comes to your own safety, but not that of others.
Your dog is your responsibility. If you can’t control it, you shouldn’t keep it, and it is unlikely that it will find a new home.
Completely agree. That’s what a responsible dog owner sounds like.
As you say, that is a judgement call, and I can’t say that yours is the wrong one.
It wasn’t a serious suggestion. It was my way of saying that taking the dog to a professional doesn’t absolve the owner of any responsibility for it’s subsequent behavior. As you suggested, the biting behavior is now an option for the dog. You can’t know if it has really gone or if you have simply changed the circumstances under which it will be triggered.
Yes, and it should ideally happen no more than once.
I was assuming a serious injury. Obviously the punishment should be proportional. That said, a really violent dog attack, particularly to someone elderly or very young, is not likely to be trivial.
I was obviously too sedate with my wording, by not acceptable I pretty much mean, kill the dog.
This! Dogs are not scarce in England, good, ownerless dogs in shelters are abundant, kill this dog, get a new one.
You could go the training route but then you’ll always have in the back of your mind ‘Is the dog going to freak out and bite that child’s face’
- Another thing that puzzles me about ‘bad dog’ threads is the expectation a dog has to run off leash. Like I said before our dog is apparently (years of observation) hardwired to get along with all people: for a dog as formidable as she is it just wouldn’t work any other way, for me. But she’s too aggressive to other dogs to ever go to dog runs, which are the only place where we live that it’s legal for a dog to be off leash outside its property. She is fine hanging in the house with her humans or walking on leash with me crossing the street to avoid dogs which look like they’ll rile her up (little males that mind their own business are OK, otherwise dicey).
A muzzle I could see impacting a dog’s quality of life, not necessary IMO for a dog aggressive dog that’s properly controlled where it’s illegal for other dogs to be off leash. Human aggressive dogs are a whole other thing, though of course it can vary in severity of behavior problem and by how much damage the dog is capable of doing. But a dog that might bite people off leash where the situations where it happened in the past might arise? That seems crazy to me. Even with ‘professional training’.
- Because obviously no trainer will give that assurance.
This is beyond “trainer” – you need a behaviorist. There are those who specialize in evaluating aggressive/reactive dogs. Spend the money for a good evaluation – it will either save the dog or ease your conscience if the dog cannot be saved. Either outcome is worth the money.