Dog Aggression: once a biter, always a biter?

In My Humble Opinion
1

My dad has two great danes that he rescued last November. Gracie and Cowboy. Gracie is 3 and a half, while Cowboy is 4 and a half.

While Garcie is certainly the more neurotic dog, Cowboy has always been the much more easy going and relaxed. Until lately, that is.

My dad has someone come in each week and scoop up all the dog poop and one week, Cowboy started snarling at the poor girl. He didn’t actually do anything, but 200 lbs of snarling dog will freak anybody out. Then, a few weeks after that, I had some friends over to my dad’s house while I was house sitting and everything seemed fine- the dogs were playing with everyone, snuggling, etc. All of a sudden, Cowboy was playing with my friend’s husband (sort of razzing, etc), when he suddenly took an aggressive stance, and started snarling. Then, Cowboy lunged at my friend’s husband’s leg and bit him. There wasn’t a gash or anything, just a few small scratches from teeth, but that’s still inexcusable.

Then, a few days ago, my dad had someone over to fix up his yard. I don’t know the context, but apparently Cowboy bit this guy, too. The guy wasn’t bleeding,but he was freaked out. So bad, in fact, that he called Animal Control. AC is coming out this week to make sure the dog doesn’t have Rabies, which is totally understandable.

Anyway, my dad agrees he needs a trainer because this sudden behavior isn’t normal at all. So, I called the (supposedly) most experienced trainer in town and explained the above. He told me that there’s nothing you can do in a situation like this, because a dog that bites can’t be trained not to bite. In fact, he said that the only thing anyone can do is train the dog not to bite when around you, but that’s it. He said he doesn’t do aggression training with dogs because it doesn’t work and since he can’t guarantee it, he wont do it. I said, “Well, nothing is 100% guaranteed to work. I understand that. . .” and he cut me off and snapped, “OBEDIENCE TRAINING ALWAYS WORKS. ALWAYS. 100% of the time!” Oh, I see.

I said to him, “So, you’re saying we have no options?” And he said, “Basically. You really can only just put him to sleep.” Uh. . . k.

Now, this makes no sense to me. If somewhat aggressive dogs can’t be taught to not be aggressive, then how did those dogs that Michael Vick have get adopted out? This guys is just a shitty trainer, yes?

What do you guys suggest? Things we can do? People to call? He really is a super sweet dog, I have no idea what his problem is.

We’re in Bakersfield, CA, if that makes a difference. If you know of any good trainers in the vicinity and let me know, I’d really appreciate that, too. :slight_smile:

2

Those dogs Michael Vick had are fighting dogs. Obviously, having a fighting dog that bites people is stupid. Fighting dogs that bite people get put down.

I have a biter. I make sure he’s never, ever, EVER in a position to bite anybody. That means strangers don’t touch him; generally they don’t even see him. He’s 16 now. I did have a very, VERY good trainer work with him for a while, and what the trainer had to say was that it just depends on why the dog bites.

3

First, take him to the vet to make sure something is not hurting him. He might have a sore foot or leg or other pain that is triggering this.

4

You need to make sure your dad is taking this more seriously than he is right now. An aggressive dog will always be an aggressive dog. The trainer is correct. If your dad wants to keep the dog, he needs to make sure the dog is never, ever allowed unleased around people, children, and animals without him standing close by. You simply can’t trust an aggressive dog. This means no unleased walks and no one in the backyard while the dog is running around.

5

He regularly goes to the vet and he’s the picture of good health, actually. Sometimes he gets little ear infections, but those are always cared for with the quickness.

I suppose what’s odd about this is that he was the least aggressive dog I’ve ever seen for the first 6 months my dad had him. No aggression toward Gracie, nor toward any person.

6

Another vote for taking the dog to the vet. My Husky suddenly became agressive a couple of years ago and we were worried she’d have to be put down. It turned out she had a weird stomach virus and we put her on a natural food diet. She’s been great ever since.

7

They got adopted out? (I didn’t follow the case closely so I really am asking but surprised)

I volunteered for the Anti-Cruelty society and while they are a no-kill shelter there are a few cases where they put dogs down. One that is a guaranteed end for the dog is if it was involved in dog fighting. They simply will not adopt out such an animal. It is just too dangerous to trust reliably and that aggression cannot be worked out of them.

Obedience training can mitigate this. If the dog is trained to be very obedient to its owner then some measure of control can be had. But as noted if the owner is not around then it is questionable if the dog will continue to behave.

Possibly, if this is not real aggression but some sort of acting out, it could be corrected. Check to be sure the dog is healthy (bad teeth can cause pain but go unnoticed by the owner making for a cranky dog). Very good and closely followed obedience training generally makes most dogs much happier. They are established in the pecking order with the owner as boss. Everyone is crystal clear on it and happy dog ensues.

If he is not neutered then do so at the earliest opportunity. Aggression levels generally drop noticeably in neutered male dogs.

I wouldn’t give up on him yet but till some other options are tried I’d be extremely cautious letting him around other people and animals. It is possible this cannot be sorted in which case you need to absolutely keep the dog away from everyone at all times, no exceptions.

Also, anytime he displays aggression the behavior needs to be corrected immediately and in no uncertain terms. NEVER hit the dog or abuse it but make it hyper-crystal clear to the dog that will not be tolerated AT ALL!

8

Yeah, I was watching the news the other night and several of them were adopted out, while another is a little service dog now. It was so cute- he had a little vest and is taken to hospitals to cheer people up :). If I remember correctly, they said the only dog that can’t be adopted out is Vick’s #1 fighter, he’s in a shelter being rehabbed still.

Here’s a slightly older video (YouTube), but you can see the progress they were making. (I love the part where she’s playing the flute and the dog looks confused to high hell!).

Cowboy was neutered at the rescue, but this was obviously well into his adult life (at the age of three and a half, or so). I know this may be a factor. But, like I said, he was absolutely fine for 6 months, so this is incredibly odd.

I just told my dad to schedule an appointment at the vet, just for a thorough going over of the dog. Just in case there is something lurking beneath. If nothing else, perhaps the vet will have some suggestions as far as local trainers.

Thank you for the wonderful advice and also thank you for your good work with the puppies :).

9

I agree that making sure there isn’t an underlying physical cause is a great idea, and it may be worth talking to another trainer.

The only experience I have that is similar had an uhappy outcome. My sister had an English mastiff named Dante who followed the same pattern that Cowboy is now displaying. Dante was a sweet, loving, playful dog who gradually became unpredictable. It escalated into sudden unprovoked attacks on two different visitors and some hairy behavior in between. My sister took him to a few trainers and a couple of vets, trying to find a solution, but in the end it was clear that Dante had become mentally unstable, and was getting worse. It was heartbreaking.

10

I can only speak of the ones in Utah, but in that case no, they haven’t been adopted out. Most of those dogs are terrified of everything and have had little to no human socialization.

That said, they are making a lot of progress. When I was out there, a good number of them had become quite friendly. Dogs really have a remarkable ability to come back from things like this, given the right environment and assistance.

Lucas, Vick’s champion fighter, is court ordered to never leave the sanctuary there. The rest of the dogs, however, are expected to be adoptable eventually.

11

From a legal aspect, as I was told by a lawyer friend, once your dog is known to have bitten one person once, your sue-ability shoots way up

12

Vet, neutering (if not already), then watch the Dog Whisperer and Dogtown on the National Geographic channel. Dogs don’t have profound memories, or guilt like humans do. Years of bad behavior can be corrected in a few weeks’ time.

Cesar Milan is the “Dog Whisperer”, and some don’t condone his tactics. But for large breeds (such as your danes and my bullboxer) you must be physical, and you must use a slip leash to teach discipline.

A good start would be taking him on walks around the neighborhood, and whenever a person passes by and his aggression begins, a quick correctional jerk will work wonders.

You’ll be amazed at the results.

13

I disagree about the jerk-and-pop methods and your notions of bad habits being broken that fast. Bad habits die hard, in dogs. They revert back to old behaviors pretty quickly, especially when it’s a matter of temperament. Depending on the cause of the aggressive behavior, it may only reinforce it. In some dogs, it can work. In others, it can spell complete disaster. Millan is the source of much debate in the dog training world.

If the dog in question is in any way a shy, fearful or submissive dog by nature, the J&P correction method could actually be dangerous advice and could make the dog more fearfully aggressive in the long run, teaching him that there IS something to fear and something to lash out about.

I would recommend a consult with the Behavioral Clinic at Tufts. Dr. Moon and her colleagues are worth their weight in gold. Even if you can’t make it for an on-site consult, their services can be valuable.

Plenty of aggressive dogs have been rehabilitated. That said, NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM SHOULD EVER BE TRUSTED AGAIN. Ever. Hell, I’m not sure any dog, biter or not, should ever be trusted 100%. And that comes from someone with a lot of dog training experience, from SAR to Service Dogs…

I currently have a working dog who is very “Hard” and who runs hot. In the wrong hands, he would have been a nightmare and, possibly, a dangerous bite risk. It’s not a bad temperament issue. It’s a breed issue with a hard-wiring meant for herding cattle as well as the work ethic of a long line of no-nonsense workers.

He requires a lot of work and constant training. Otherwise, he comes up with shit on his own and that could spell disaster.

14

This is very strange. I’ve been closely acquainted with 3 great danes in my life and met many others at the dog park, etc. They are unquestionably the sweetest, most gentle and loving breed I have ever known. If I had the space I’d get one in a heartbeat.

Something is going on here. A dog - and especially a dane - doesn’t just start biting people for no reason. I’ve read stories just like this in dog books and articles and they invariably end with discovering that someone - a neighbor, a mailman, a trainer, etc - was abusing the dog. The only other thing I can imagine is that he is sick or injured and you just don’t know it yet.

I absolutely, 100% disagree with this. It sounds like something the character Lindsay Bluth would advocate.

15

This may not apply (but then again, it might). When we got a St. Bernard puppy, our vet cautioned us that these large dogs mature relatively slowly, and their true basic nature might not be apparent until 2 y.o. or even later. Occasionally, he said, an animal that was friendly as a youngster becomes “rough” as an adult. The vet added that if this extremely unusual change happens with a large dog like our St. B, one has no choice but to euthanize, as serious injury to a human or another animal is almost inevitable.

I have also heard accounts like those that Cisco reports, wherein it turns out that unbeknownst to the owner someone is teasing or tormenting the animal.

16

Everyone’s giving good advice here. That’s why I love this board!

Vet
More Training (definitely call someone else - and I’ve seen the corrective leash training work on a couple of pitties I know, but done carefully with a professional)
Possibility of mistreatment
Late neutering - late personality changes (but I’ve heard a couple vets recommended it for large breeds, as their skeletal system takes longer to mature and neutering too early can compromise large dogs’ bones, so what do you do?)
As a vet tech, I’ve worked with a lot of dogs, and Danes are usually very passive and I’ve only needed to muzzle one once. Even that one wasn’t aggressive per se, but he gave me the “eye” for a second and I don’t take chances.

One sort-of solution, if all else fails and he’s good with his family - meaning you trust him when no one else is around - a cage muzzle may be your only option. Some may think this is extreme, but short of euthanizing if nothing else works, this may be your only solution. Any time company comes over, or if he’s taken for walks, and whenever he goes to the vet’s office, he gets the cage muzzle placed.

A lot of people who have aggressive dogs and need to come to our hospital use these. They’re more humane than the traditional tight nylon muzzles. They’re the ones you see on security dogs. They can wear them for long periods of time and these are much more comfortable for the dog.

It makes the dog look really scary, too, which could be in your favor because people won’t approach him. It would probably also lead to a really bad reputation, but another bite could be irrevocably fatal for the dog.

It’s a tough situation with no easy answers. I hope you find a solution

17

I’m not doubting that your organization did that, but “fighting dogs can never be adopted out” has been decisively disproven. It is only an urban myth.

On-topic: regular vet visits are one thing. A current vet visit for this current potential problem is in order even if regular visits have occurred in the past. Does that make sense? Rule out physical causes first.

Then have the dog evaluated buy a reputable behaviorist or, failing that, a quality trainer. See if a reason can be determined. One thing worth noting that “unprovoked” attacks sometimes turn out to have actually been provoked and someone is lying – i.e., he kicked the dog when your Dad was out of the room getting chips and salsa.

Failing that, yes, unprovoked attacks generally mean the dog is unsound. Unsound dogs – especially large unsound dogs – either live with serious, Hannibal-Lecter-style security measures in place at all times, or get put down. The sad truth – and I say this as an animal lover and dog lover of the first order – is that the domestic dog is too interdependent with humans for one to have a good quality of life if he cannot live safely with humans.

To be fair, I’d say the same measures should apply to people who abuse dogs – permanently monitor them, and painlessly put them down if they continue – but that’s my personal opinion.

Sailboat

18

Upon reviewing the photographs, I diagnose one possible provocation – being forced to wear pink bunny ears.

Sailboat

19

We are of the same mind. Most of the people I work with are too. You are definitely not alone!

-SeaDragon