Oy, what my people will think about gay marriage

Great Debates
1

If my people hear America is performing gay marriages, America’s already low reputation will plummet.

[hijack] What foreigners often don’t realize is that there’s a large number of conservative and very conservative people in America, and that not everyone is a pervert (from a traditional Asian perspective). [/hijack]

But, then, trying to explain “same-sex marriage” would take just too much energy.

For Americans who accept their same-sex orientation and behavior - they are lucky they are in a culture where, although unacceptable, such a thing is possible.

I mean, imagine a South Asian wedding of two people of same sex. Which side will give the jewelry? Which person will wear the dress and jewelry and put mehndi/henna on their hands and feet? Who will follow whom around the fire altar (if they’re Hindu)? Who will be hidden until the other consents to marriage? Which one will act shy and demure? How will they determine whom to stop for money during the various stopping-for-money traditions?

WRS - male, married to a woman, and confused whether “same-sex marriages” are a good or bad thing because he’s religiously conservative and culturally traditional.

2

I’ve never seen someone hijack their own OP before.

Who are “your people”, WRS? I assume you do not mean residents of Middle Earth.

You speak of religious weddings. Very few religions would condone gay marriage, and so your questions are rather moot.

The current proposals relate to nonreligious (“civil”) gay marriage, which would by definition be culturally progressive, not traditional.

3

[QUOTE=WeRSauron]
I mean, imagine a South Asian wedding of two people of same sex. Which side will give the jewelry? Which person will wear the dress and jewelry and put mehndi/henna on their hands and feet? Who will follow whom around the fire altar (if they’re Hindu)? Who will be hidden until the other consents to marriage? Which one will act shy and demure? How will they determine whom to stop for money during the various stopping-for-money traditions?

[QUOTE]

Hey the King of Cambodia says he’s A-OK 100% behind the idea. The quick answer, of course, and the one being used in the United States is: make your own ceremony. Same-sex couples here run into the same problem with the traditional Christian rite, so they tweak a bit to solve the issue in those churches who allow them to get hitched (UU, MCC, some churches in mainstream denominations).

4

You’ve missed a key point in all of this. The reason that same-sex marriage/civil union is becoming an issue is precisely because a growing portion of the American population is finally beginning to realize that there’s absolutely nothing “unacceptable” about same-sex orientation. If you start with the assumption that same-sex orientation is unacceptable, then I can appreciate your discomfort with same-sex marriages. The available evidence, however, makes it clear that your opinion is not shared by everyone.

5

Part of me thinks that this thread is one big ‘whoosh.’ Of all of objections to gay marriage I’ve heard, problems deciding which one will be demure never really struck me as a problem.

Of course, with the ‘Oy’ in the title, I thought that ‘your people’ were Jewish. Guess I’m 0 for 2 today.

6

Do your people care how Americans perceive them and their cultural traditions? IMHO, it is totally lame that the woman has to act shy and demure during your wedding ceremonies, but I’m not expecting you to justify that particularly custom to me.

People can hate America for a ton of reasons. How we handle marriage, though, shouldn’t be one of them.

7

My people are South Asians.

In Asian cultures, there’s no separation between culture and religion. Secularism is anathema there. Even in secular India religion plays a huge part. Sure, there’s no one religion that dominates, as in other countries, but religion is a serious issue, and one that no one would dare try to separate from the culture of the land.

Perhaps Americans will not understand - living in a secular society, it’s difficult to envision, let alone understand, a non-secular one.

As such, religious and cultural practices must be adhered to as best as possible for a marriage to be seen as valid.

Now, women acting demure may not be acceptable to Americans (and certainly I don’t believe in it), but I wouldn’t be so swift to condemn other cultures’ values. This attitude of arrogance and self-assuredness is another reason why other peoples don’t like America. They say, “What makes America think it knows better than us?” Then the go on to list the so many ways they see America and Americans going astray.

Asians dislike American values for a number of reasons. One is that they are seen as plain wrong and misplaced and misdirected. This is an issue because the older people see that the youth seek to emulate America. If America’s going down the drain, from their perspective, their hopes for the youth being saved dim considerably.

Why may this be an issue for America? America needs to win the favor of various peoples, for international stability and economic progress. Otherwise, competitors to America can easily use its degeneration as a reason to support them rather than America. This should be understood, as so many question, “Why do they hate us?”

WRS

8

So we should act as you say, or else you won’t like us?

Furthermore, we should act as each and every person with an opinion says, or at least some of them won’t like us?

Perhaps you only mean that we should refrain from ever doing anything that someone, somewhere has objected to at least once. That’s at least logically consistent, but abhorrent to anyone with an actual moral code - people have objected to a lot of things, and most of them conflict with something else that someone has objected to. Refrain from doing objectionable things, and you simultaneously must refrain from doing anything, and refrain from an objectionable lack of action.

Perhaps you only mean that we should refrain from doing things that at least one person in Curiously Unnamed South Asian Country has objected to – but what’s your moral standard for saying that we should only listen to your prudes, and not anyone else’s? In practice, the other prudes in all the other countries would have to get equal time, and then we’re back to not doing anything.

In other words, we should be guided by our own moral sense, and not by a wish to avoid offending others’ morality. If we try to appease everyone, we just end up with moral paralysis.

Note that this applies even if your Curiously Unnamed South Asian Country’s prevailing morality is perfect, superior, and without stain. Even in such a case moral paralysis is not desriable, and therefore we must not blindly act from a reactionary wish to be inoffensive. If you believe that we should emulate your CUSAC’s moral principles, you must provide some basis for doing so beyond the fact that we may offend.

9

So, what you’re saying is that we should worry about what everyone else thinks of us, but they shouldn’t worry about what we think of them? It’s fine for other countries to condemn our cultural traditions of free thought, secularism, innovation, and self-determinism, but it’s not fine for us to condemn their cultural traditions that put artificial constraints on women? I don’t think you’re going to find very many in this country who are very amenable to that viewpoint.

You can’t condemn us for calling your ideas wrong-headed and misguided, then in the same breath tell us how wrong-headed and misguided our ideas are. Not if you want us to take you seriously, at any rate. Pot/kettle/black, sauce for the goose, however you want to phrase it, it’s hypocritical and ridiculous.

10

I can understand this, seeing as how we’ve accomplished so little in 200 years compared to the great strides the Asian’s have made. :rolleyes:

Other peoples’ values are always wrong (or misplaced or misdirected, whatever that means) when they are not the same as your values. That’s essentially saying that you don’t like people because they are different from you.

No we don’t. You haven’t been paying close attention to all of the crazy shit we’ve been doing all over the world lately. Apparently we don’t care who likes us.

11

So, basically, they’re hypocrites. They are upset that America thinks it knows better, and proceed to list the ways that they know better instead. And we’re supposed to take these people seriously because…?

Paint with a broad brush much?

Since young Asians are trying to emulate America, they must not dislike America, so saying “Asians dislike American values” is not correct. It sounds like it’s just the older generations complaining. And, honestly, older Americans complain about America, so that’s not too unusual.

And your solution is that America pander to the older generation so they can feel better about their own children/grandchildren who are emulating America? That’s a bit selfish, don’t you think: Wishing for America to change it’s culture to match yours just because some people are upset that their own culture is in danger of changing to be like America’s?

And which people’s favor should we win? You can’t satisfy everyone. Someone’s always going to be pissed off at America, no matter what we do.

It seems from your post that ‘they’ hate us because ‘they’ are losing their youth to our cultural influence. Frankly, that’s not our problem. If the youth of your culture wants to emulate America, maybe it would be a good idea to find out why. We’re certainly not making them do it.

12

Why do they hate us? Is it because we are puritans or heathens? Are we a degenerate secular society as you say or are we rabid fundamentalists as Aldebaran claims? When the world can come to some kind of consensus on the issue then maybe we can adjust our culture to fit the needs of our foreign friends. If you can’t please everyone you might as well please yourself, especially if you are making a killing off of it.

13

South Asians are as diverse a bunch you can find. I have no idea what “My people are South Asians” mean. The influence of religion is not really unique in that region. Look at Africa, Latin Am, Middle-East, and even the US.

You need to divorce the valid issue of cultural relativism from the critically important universal notion of equality. It is not acceptable for any culture to mutilate the clitoris (not very frequent in South Asia, I know, but female infanticide is). It is not acceptable for any culture to treat women as servient. These acts exemplify a huge social malaise, not cultural practices.

14

Whooooaaaaa. Don’t shoot the messenger, eh. I never stated I agree with my people. I’m just saying what they think. (And I have not named the South Asian country I am supposedly referring to because as far as values are concerned, there’s little difference among Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, etc.)

In the same way, they may say: It is not acceptable to parade women’s bodies. It is not acceptable to objectify women and men. It is not acceptable to encourage rampant immorality. It is not acceptable to tamper with the natural order of society. It is not acceptable to overburden women with the expectation of domestic and occupational success. It is not acceptable to flaunt God’s laws. Ad nausem.

Only in the West is there a notion of equality. It doesn’t exist anywhere else. This is a conflict between individualism (which the West believes in) and communalism (which much of the rest of the world believes in). When we look down on the others, we are guilty of the same intolerance and bigotry we accuse them of when they ignore our calls to “civilization.”

Perhaps I was a bit wrong in saying we need the others’ approval. However, the point is valid that if we offend the others without attempting to rectify any erosion in the relationship between us (America) and them, it will come back to bite us in the foot, as it has inevitably in the past.

WRS

15

This reminds me of a paradox that annoys my family to no end. There are people who would literally kill to get to live in America, but who waste no moment or opportunity to attack, blast, malign, and speak against it. They don’t change once they come here. So, my mother says she feels like telling these people that if they don’t like America, why don’t they just go back to Pakistan? But being a good South Asian woman, she would never dare.

You’d be surprised how many young Asians love and hate America at the same time. It’s very puzzling. They love its culture and freedom.

WRS

16

Actually, the US is far more religious than some Asian cultures. For example, in a poll for a TV show here in Britain last night, some 79% of Americans agreed with the phrase “I have always believed in God” while less than 40% of South Koreans did.

Well, that’s the problem with freedom: Everyone else is free too!

17

WRS: *If my people hear America is performing gay marriages, America’s already low reputation will plummet. […]

But, then, trying to explain “same-sex marriage” would take just too much energy. […]

I mean, imagine a South Asian wedding of two people of same sex. Which side will give the jewelry? Which person will wear the dress and jewelry and put mehndi/henna on their hands and feet? Who will follow whom around the fire altar (if they’re Hindu)? Who will be hidden until the other consents to marriage? Which one will act shy and demure? How will they determine whom to stop for money during the various stopping-for-money traditions? *

(snort) Maybe you need to call home a little more often, WRS. I’m an American currently living in India, and I assure you that plenty of Indians are familiar with the concept of homosexuality. Homosexual acts between males are criminalized (the law ignores the possibility of such acts between females), but there is growing and increasingly vocal opposition to this discrimination. I know a few gay Indians, and although most Indian gays are at least partially closeted, there is widespread recognition that homosexuality does exist in India.

Look at the recent Bollywood smash hit Kal Ho Naa Ho, which used a supposed (though actually nonexistent) homosexual relationship between the two male protagonists for comic effect (and also included a sympathetic shot of a kiss between a gay male couple). Other characters in the movie were distressed by this supposed relationship and considered it abnormal and undesirable, but they certainly didn’t need anyone to explain to them what same-sex marriage is! (Even the elderly housekeeper in the movie is capable of identifying gay butt-f***ing when she (thinks she) sees it.) So I really think that many of your South Asian compatriots are quite a bit more sophisticated about homosexuality than you’re giving them credit for, even if most of them still don’t actually accept or approve of it.

And I have not named the South Asian country I am supposedly referring to because as far as values are concerned, there’s little difference among Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, etc.

“Little difference”? No way. There are distinct cultural differences among the various South Asian countries, so I don’t see how you can say that their “values” are basically the same (e.g., mostly-Muslim Pakistan and Bangladesh are much more tolerant of polygamy and divorce, which are accepted Muslim practices, than mostly-Hindu India, since modern mainstream Hinduism disapproves of them). Homosexuality AFAIK isn’t widely accepted in any of the S. Asian countries, but that doesn’t mean that their “values” are generally interchangeable.

18

Am I the only Doper-of-Asian-ethnicity who thinks WeRSauron should refrain from speaking for “my people”?

We’ll make our own judgements ourselves, thankyouverymuch.

19

While I don’t necessarily agree with everything WeRSauron is saying - let me say that I have a lot of respect for him and hold him in high regard - how refreshing that a non-US’r :smiley: can discuss anti-US sentiment in a reasoned, intelligent, even-handed manner without resorting to hyperbole and name-calling.

Unlike someone else who shall remain nameless and should be internet-less…

20

Give me a break. I can tell you that India is a pretty free country. So is Sri Lanka and even Pakistan to an extent.

And, no, if you speak to the Indian young adults, you will find very few saying “Death to America”… methinks you are confusing the Middle-East with the Indian sub continent. “Hate the country but love its freedom” is really more applicable to countries in the Middle-East, or well, may be some of the hardcore elements in Pakistan.