Hey, I was talking to my husband and he said “The Pale Man” was based on this painting of Francisco de Goya entitled, “Saturn Devours His Son.”
warning: kind of disturbing, unless you find cannibalism SFW.
This makes a lot of sense to me because in the film
when she enters the lair of the pale man there are tons of paintings on the wall of him devouring children.
Nobody doing that would be outside of prison. 
I’m sorry about stopping using spoilers, Phantom Dennis. I got the impression that the posters were moving toward unspoilering comments and took it too far. I’ll spoiler from now on.Phantom Dennis said that “One of the central themes of the movie is that blind obedience is a tool of evil. The doctor sums this up quite well in his final speech to the Capitan.” That gives another viewpoint to the movie that enriches it, thank you. Whether it is the rebels, Mercedes, or Ofelia - diverging from the rules and making their own decisions gave life to these people. I would even say that Ofelia’s choosing a delusion over the mundane and harsh (though less so for her) life around her would be a nod to the value of breaking the rules and making up your own.On Ofelia meeting the Pale Man:[spoiler]I am confused about what this is trying to say. Ofelia disobeyed the fairie (and her magic book) when she skipped the middle door and opened the left one (the book showed the little girl unlocking the middle door). What made her not choose the middle door and how did she choose the left one? I just saw this as disobeying the fairie, but what was the reason? If she was starting to distrust the faun/fairie, then why do anything at all?
It was really strange why she choose to draw an escape door on the ceiling and climb up rather than draw a door easier to traverse! That just smacks of “I’ll write something cute.”
Secondly she was admonsihed not to eat anything and she did. Okay, why? Was this some point about her being priviledged and able to eat while the locals starved? I just saw it as - she was tempted and she succumbed. What was the underlying message? How does this make her princess material if she succumbs to temptation, suffers no loss, and learns nothing (that I can see)?[/spoiler]
Since most posts are doused in spoilers, how about if I just put a “spoiler” warning in the thread title?
[spoiler]
On The middle door: I took that to mean that she had some insight derived from her fairy nature; totally human children would not be able to have this insight and would fail.
On the ceiling escape: good point, can’t think of any meaning to that.
On eating: she had been “put to bed without her supper” as punishment for not comming to dinner; thus she was tempted with food and succumbed. In my opinion, this must be magic food which overcomes one’s will - otherwise I can’t imagine anyone succumbing - however hungry I was, I would not really think of eating with that pale thing at the head of the table!
My impression was this: she was set up to fail - in spite of the warning, the Fawn knew that she would eat - due to the magic of that place, no-one would not eat something. The real test was this: what would she do when she had failed? Think of some innovative solution or succumb to dispair and death?[/spoiler]
Okay, since there’s a spoiler warning at the top, I’m not boxing anymore, but if you don’t want to read my thoughts on the pale thing, don’t read further.
I agree with somebody upthread, who said that one of the huge comforting differences about the fairy tale land is that if you follow the rules, you don’t get hurt. If you break the rules, you do. In reality, as seen most clearly with the guy with the rabbits, you can do everything right and still get hurt. I think maybe the “breaking the rules” bit was in there to emphasize that - she ate the grapes, so there were consequences.
All I saw for consequences was that the faun said ‘It’s over. I’m not coming back.’ and then later he comes back. Not much consequence. In retrospect, however, I do see Ofelia continuing to care for the Mandrake. I take that now as: she continued to do as she said she would do despite the fact that the faun called it quits. That’s important in a princess (or anyone else) - doing what you promised even if other’s break their promise or the world goes to hell in a handbasket.
I also thought that part of the lesson of the fruit was that it matters if you do the right or wrong thing even if you think no one will know. She thought she could get away with it because the creature had no eyes (as far as she knew) and no one would notice the absence of a couple of grapes. She learned differently.
I think you underestimate the effect of living in fear, so close to a person who has power over you and who you realize will not hesitate to harm you (his first act on meeting her was to crush her hand). It wouldn’t be “morbid” of her to fear for her life if her mother’s protection was removed (and in fact, it was absolutely accurate). Also, the thought of losing her mother would likely cause as much anguish as contemplating her own death, especially in such a threatening situation.
I also think she did make a choice and a sacrifice at the end. Remember, she was delusional. She made the choice within her delusion not to let the baby’s blood be spilled. And in the cross-over place where the real world touches her delusion, she thought she was escaping, and rescuing her brother from the horror of the warring world, taking him to her “kingdom” to make him a prince. I don’t know if she would have reasoned beyond that (being her reason was mostly gone), but she might also have thought that, far from doing him “no harm”, having the Captain raise the boy, turning him into another version of himself, would be harm indeed, for the child and for the world she was leaving. And choosing to defy the Captain is what got her shot.
Uh, personally I’d call almost being eaten by that thing a consequence.
“almost” is never a fairy tale consequence. We always know she will escape the Pale Man. The consequence would have to be losing a hand, having her new dress ruined, or in this case maybe having the faun stop the quest. However the faun came back later so, again, I don’t see a consequence.
Sparrowhawk, my missing the importance of “living in fear” is probably tainting a lot of the symbolism I’m missing or discounting in the movie. In the end, however, I see her trying to save the baby from the Capitan but then just giving up the baby. Granted she had no other choice, but what was the point of just handing over the baby at the end? It seems like she should have realized the faun wanted the blood of an innocent and said take mine, thus demonstrating not-following-the-rules (i.e. let me use the baby’s blood), thinking outside the box, and finding the noble solution. BTW, she ended up in the fantasy world but I don’t remember seeing the baby there. If he wasn’t, then she didn’t even live up to her promise to take him with her.
In the real world perhaps she should have started to hand over the baby and kneed him and tried to run away only to be shot. Now, I don’t know what guts it takes to try to escape when certain death will result, but certain death awaited her even by surrendering the baby. Oddly, I thought the doctor stupid for telling off the Capitan and then getting shot. But then felt he was noble because he knew he was going to get shot so he stayed true to humself, said his peace, picked up his bag, and left for his next appointment. He died true to his convictions. And I’m glad the storytellers didn’t flinch at having the Capitan shoot Ofelia and having her die. It was completely in character.
I would have to agree!
Thanks for loving my mom. I would have to agree too.
[sub]Uh, what is it you agree with?[/sub]
In the original Spanish, she apparently does do that. See olivesmarch4’s first spoiler box in the other thread.
It looked to me like, when the faun left, the mandrake “died”- the magic went away. Ofelia made a comment that he’d stopped movie. Thus, mom died, and it looked to her like it was her fault. Beyond that, she was forced to accept that people really die, and you have to live with it forever.
The Capitan threw the mandrake in the fire when he found her somewhere she wasn’t supposed to be, but it had already “stopped moving.” Also, he was starting to pick up parallels to the faun- both made a point of “follow orders exactly”, they were the only visible authority of an outside higher power, both wanted the baby brother, etc. One could argue it’s the same event happening again in the “real” world.
IIRC, the mother was holding the baby.
Ah, yes, thanks. Since she gave up the real baby to the Capitan it didn’t register to me.
Two comments about the scene with the Pale Man:
Ofelia is also mirroring what is going on in Mercede’s life. Mercedes had the key to the larder and will end up in trouble if she takes anything from it (which she does). Same with Ofelia.
When Ofelia draws the first door, she does so at the bottom of the wall in her bedroom. Then she has to climb down to get to the floor of the magic room. But when she escapes, doesn’t she draw a door on the ceiling of the magic room? How then does she end up coming thru the floor of her bedroom? The new door should be higher than the old one, no? It also shouldn’t have brought her back to her own room at all, but the room behind the wall on which she drew the first door. Did I miss something, or is that just another freakish part of the fantasy world?
Oh, no problem – this thread was getting cumbersome with all the huge spoiler boxes anyhow.
Here’s my take on Ofelia’s choice of the left door during the 2nd test:
Every indication we’re given points to the idea that the center door is the correct choice – the faun’s guide-fairies insist on it, and apparently the book shows her using the center door (although I don’t remember seeing this). She even hesitantly places the key into the lock of the center door, and just as she’s about to open the lock, she recoils violently and goes for the left door.
I’m guessing she is acting on some kind of powerful intuition telling her to pick the left door (and apparently she’s right, although we’ll never know what was behind the center door).
I may be venturing into left-field territory now, but I have a theory as to what drove her impulsive, last-second decision. If you think back to the beginning of the film, when she first meets the Capitan, she offers him her left hand and he refuses, curtly telling her that she should have offered the right hand. This illustrates the strict, petty nature of the Capitan, and I think it also suggests a bit of rebellion on the part of Ofelia (either conscious or unconscious). Perhaps she simply forgets her etiquette, or perhaps she offers the “wrong” hand on purpose to test him.
In any case, I’m thinking Ofelia’s impulse to pick the left door might stem from her belief that the Capitan would never choose it, and her primal desire to defy his will. So her very first act of disobedience in the fantasy world is subtley linked to her first act of defiance toward the Capitan in the real world. (Admitedly the parallel would be clearer had there only been two doors, which is why I think I may be reaching a bit.)
As for eating the food:
I’m not sure the food is enchanted, although I suppose anything’s possible in a fairy tale. I think she has plenty of motivation to eat the food without any extra magic to tempt her – she was sent to bed without food so she’s likely very hungry, and more importantly, her confidence has been bolstered by the fact that she already disobeyed the “rules” once by opening the left door, so maybe she suspects the rule about not eating the food is bunk too. It’s pretty normal for kids to test the limits like this, although obviously it’s a dumb move (or maybe not).
Perhaps Del Torro’s theme is more nuanced than “obedience=bad, choice=good”. Maybe by showing Ofelia making some bad choices, he’s trying to emphasize that sometimes obedience is the correct path, and other times it’s not – what’s more important is the ability to make this distinction.
According to olive, Ofelia says, “I sacrifice myself!”, which is a deliberate choice- her instead of her brother.
She did promise to take her brother with her and make him a prince, but only if he came out without hurting her mother. His birth killed her mother, so she wasn’t under obligation to take him to the Underworld.
Actually, I thought she used her left hand because she was clutching her fairy tales with her right. On further thought, this argues for all the fairy stuff being a defense against horror for her. She first sees the “fairy” on the way to the Capitan’s house; after he turns his attentions elsewhere after hurting her hand (such frightening foreshadowing of the later Hand Scene!), she leaves the books behind for Mercedes to collect as she runs off into the woods - she doesn’t need them at the moment. So interesting that her Magic Book is blank - until she projects the content onto the pages. The scene wherein the book pages transform into a Rorschach of a bloody uterus as her mother nearly miscarries was amazing. I’m all over the place here, but I also noticed that Ofelia was charged with collecting everything that Mercedes needed: a key, a knife, a way to ultimately destroy the Capitan (the baby).
I just saw the movie this afternoon and have really enjoyed this thread being here to process the experience. It was definitely too violent for me. I hate sadism, more and more as I get older, and much of this film I just could not watch. I love the way you put it, OlivesMarch4th:
That said, it was an amazingly rich and powerful movie, one that I’m sure will be analyzed and discussed for years to come. It was a fairy tale in the Bruno Bettelheim sense, enchantment used to express the deepest of human experiences, and to render the intolerable manageable, psychologically.
