Thank you.
I agree that these people are nutbars and should face charges. I believe God gives us modern medicine (and, you know, working brains) to deal with sick children instead of just prayer.
If you believe Der Trihs, though, I’m exactly like those people–because every single religious person is absolutely the same.
The thing that gets me about what you mention, Princhester, that she had been fatigued for two weeks, is that if they had just gone to a doctor, Kara probably would have been diagnosed as a diabetic and would be alive. To spread God’s word or to rebel at 16 or whatever. But she wouldn’t have essentially starved to death because of ketoacidosis.
I just can’t understand a parent ignoring the sort of fatigue that elevated blood sugars cause, especially for two weeks. I can’t parse it as any other thing than negligence.
I agree with you completely. My problem was not with those that feel these folks murdered their child. My problem was with Der Trihs and his delusional and hostile world view: his own faith, if you will.
Gotcha. 
Of course, I’ve never said that.
I won’t argue with the folks in the thread who can read minds and divine the truth without the need for documentation – they’re a rare and valuable resource, for without them we wouldn’t know that the girl hadn’t seen a doctor recently or that the parents knew about the low-cost health care available or that that the parents prayed because they were religious fanatics who wouldn’t have given their daughter over to medicine no matter what or that the girl’s symptoms were such that her condition was obviously grave or any of the other assumptions that have so far not a shred of evidence to support them.
I dare to hope that Voyager has had enough time to reconsider her/his position that my reluctance to condemn people merely on account of the fact that they are labelled religious is tantamount to defending murderers again, because I’m still not aware of having done it the first time.
I admit that the parents may be culpable in this death and that it may be attributable to their religious beliefs. But the mere fact that they indulged their beliefs by praying for their daughter does not implicate their religion in the girl’s death. If a pair of college-educated athiests misjudged their child’s symptoms with the result that medical care was not sought, they did not pray, and the child died, this thread wouldn’t exist. The same actions leading to the same result would all obtain: but there wouldn’t be an easy target for those with an agenda.
I still don’t see the proof that the girl’s parents were anti-medicine (and they say they weren’t, and there’s no evidence they took advantage of the vaccination exemption, and the father performed CPR – a very human intervention). There’s no proof that they withheld medical care from their daughter because of their religious beliefs, rather than because of a belief that it wasn’t necessary or that they couldn’t afford it (lots of poor people don’t know the services available to them, or are reluctant anyway),which requires no religion at all.
The established facts are that a girl died at home, unexpectedly, and that her parents did not seek for her medical attention. That’s a tragedy. Only the addition of one additional fact – that her parents indulged their religious beliefs by praying for their daughter, even though they believed she did not need a doctor – makes this, for some, a crime.
Soup, please see Miss Purl’s and mine posts about the latest updates on the story. The ministry they were associated with (and that their coffee shop was affiliated with) are passive-aggressive about their stance on doctors, but obviously against medical care vs. prayer. Thats more than a little kooky.
Saw 'em the first time. And I admit there is every possibility that what is preached to the faithful from the pulpit is sanitized for public consumption, and that there is in this tiny faith a religiously-prescribed negligence for which the parents and perhaps their pastor should answer. I’ve admitted in every post that the end-point of this reasoning is perfectly plausible, if not proven. But even given the additional links, it still isn’t proven, in fact it’s explicitly (if to some, implausibly) denied. But if a preacher, asked to pray, does so rather than put his caller on hold and dial 911, it strikes me as no greater a breach of ethics than that of a doctor who calls the pharmacy before (as he’s been asked) the hospital chaplain. I also (in my advanced age) have noticed that most folks tend to fit their faith to expedience rather than the other way 'round. I’d like to see proof of the church advising prayer instead of medicine, and a pattern of the parents putting doctrine before child welfare, before I draw the (perhaps perfectly correct) conclusion that others have reached with no effort at all.
Again, I have to say, if this event can be used to prove a church’s malfeasance with respect to its parishioners, I’ll help carry the rope. And I’m not encouraged by the words of the church itself. But proving that a man, by virtue of his religious affiliation, is guilty of any crime requires more proof than mere propinquity.
Bullshit.
You may not have specifically said that exact phrasing, but you are quite well known for your blanket delusions of how evil all religions are, how reprehensible and terrible any faith organizations are, and your statements on how being religious is a mental illness.
Faith in God did not cause her death… two moron parents caused her death. I have faith and I would never do what they did. And we’re not suppose to put God to the test in this manner… We’re suppose to be responsible for ourselves and our families, that includes taking care of our health. Those people should be charged with some kind of manslaughter or wrongful death caused by neglect. Or something… they shouldn’t get away with this.
I mean, for all we know, maybe they didn’t want the kid and this was their way of getting rid of her.
I had a blood sugar reading of 600 once. I may have appeared fine…but I can tell you I *felt * fucking awful.
Huh…you people really never peed in the little cup for your physicals? Weird…I had roughly 1/year, and always peed in the cup, and about half the time I had some blood drawn. At my only adult physical about three years ago, I also had urine testing and blood drawn, including a damn fasting glucose and cholesterol tests (I hate not being able to eat late and have breakfast…I was STARVING when I was done, because I essentially didn’t eat since lunch the day before, since I always have late dinners.)
But yeah, these parents should be charged with some kind of crime. Mansluaghter, negligent homicide, something. They mentioned that the day before she became seriously ill, yet still didn’t see a doctor. I’m barely willing to believe the two-three weeks before it might not have been noticeable, but if you acknowledge that the day before it was serious, then see a fucking doctor! Their religion doesn’t seem to prohibit them (just chastises them, :rolleyes: ) so why couldn’t they go to the ER and pray?
Doesn’t everyone think diabetes when they hear ‘thirst and frequent urination’? This kid ever see the school nurse?
Ditto that, spooje. I tend to start feeling crappy when my blood sugar hits 200 or so – headache, irritability. By the time it’s in the 400s (475 is as high as I remember it ever being; thanks, strep throat!), I’m pretty much a completely different person than I am usually. For me, personally, it’s fairly obvious to anyone I know that something’s wrong once I get in the 300 range, too, but these things do vary between diabetics.
One of the things that makes me most angry is that I know how miserable this girl must have been, and that her parents took no practical measures to alleviate that. It strikes me very much as a violation of the way parents are supposed to care for their children.
ETA:
She was home-schooled. I find it incredible that her parents weren’t questioning the amount of water she must have been drinking. Unless she wasn’t drinking water, in which case, Jesus Christ – the poor thing.
None of which is saying that “every single religious person is absolutely the same”.
Once again, from the article :
First of all, I would definitely not condemn anyone just because they are religious. I’m condemning them because, from the evidence in the article, their religious beliefs led directly to the girl’s death. 99.9% of religious people in America would get her to a hospital.
Second, I’m not condemning their praying. They can pray all they want to - in the waiting room of the hospital! I’m condemning them for praying instead of getting medical help.
If the article is correct in this girl not seeing a doctor since she was 3, I think it is reasonable to assume this was because of their religious beliefs.
The father feeling qualified to give CPR because he was friends with doctors reminds me of the Lenny Bruce routine where the shmuck gets VD advice from the guy sweeping up the drugstore.
Luckily, none of my kids had diabetes - but one did start getting dehydrated, and we got her to the doctor just before the point where she would have had to be admitted. Part of being a good parent is being sensitive to changes in kids, and getting help when the problem persists. And getting help is not praying. I’d suspect that these people prayed all the time, no problem. The specific mention of praying in response to her getting worse, and no trip to the ER, can only mean they judged praying as a substitute. And that’s why they’re scum.
Nope. I, at least, don’t. Thanks for the info.
People gave us and are giving us modern medecine. I hate seeing god being praised for people’s hard work.
Had god given us brain surgery around the 1st century, I might have agreed with you. But apparently he choose to “give” medecine to us only after generations of physicians spend their life trying to figure out how to cure ailments. And he seems to give medecine only by little bits, coincidentally only when doctors and scientists investigate a specific issue.
What about him giving us a cure for cancer without us having to find it all by ourselves, for a change?
The fireman rescued the little girl from the burning building. Let’s praise God!
That and he never has anything new to say, so it’s not really necessary for him to comment. It gets old after a while.
As for religious people who aren’t like this, I think of Siege, or Polycarp, or DuckDuckGoose, for example.
[Insert the parking space joke here]