Parents' "right" to college kids' grades?

In My Humble Opinion
61

I read these kinds of threads with a lot of interest. I have a son on the way (August!) and my wife and I end up talking about things like this all the time. We were both raised in completely different kinds of households, so it will take some work for us to find our own direction that incorporates the best of both of them, where possible. How much we want to push achievement, academic or otherwise, is a subject that comes up constantly.

But I can at least tell you this much from my own experience. I graduated college right into the dot-bomb. I didn’t major in computer science like everyone else, so I was spared the indignity of walking down Park Ave with placards that said WILL CODE FOR FOOD. But I more or less went for all the little brass rings just because I thought it would be a shame not to achieve something that I could achieve. In college, I actually thought it might make a difference in a tough job market. Hell, I went to an Ivy League school. Once upon a time, that was a meal ticket by itself.

I have revised my views quite a bit since then.

All of my little Lebowski achievements just made my “quarter life crisis” worse. Stupendously worse. I wasn’t the world’s most entitled kid: I worked through college, paid my own rent in the city as soon as I graduated, and had no financial support from my parents save for some emergencies over the years. I was always employed full-time. I didn’t go to my college graduation because my job had already started and I couldn’t take days off in the first week of work.

This period of my life was really shitty and took a few years to get over. In retrospect, I would love some of the time back that I wasted on accomplishments I see in retrospect are pointless and self-aggrandizing. I could have been napping or learning how to be something other than a slightly monomaniacal jerk.

The content and rigor of my education has paid for itself thousandfold. I do work that I absolutely love. I happen to love learning, so my life is a good fit for me. But I would be no worse off if I hadn’t bothered to amass a shelf of plastic trophies and other achievement-related paraphernalia. Those all went in the trash over a decade ago.

62

Please believe me that we have no expectation that our kids will be perfect. But one thing we have never done was tell our kids they did a great job when we knew they slacked off or could have done considerably better. And our kids repeatedly told us they appreciated that, rather than being overly praised for pedestrian efforts. When they do the many wonderful things they do, we make our emotions clear.

But all their lives they’ve seem overly complimentary parents and organizations. Where every participant gets a trophy, or parents give elaborate bouguets to a pre-schooler who stumbles through a tapdance recital. To their credit, my kids dislike this practice as much as their parents. Do something worthwhile, and we’ll be impressed. The rest? That’s just life, just muddling through.

I could brag on my kids forever, butI don’t think anyone wants to hear about it. Eldest got a student teaching gig at one of the newest and biggest school districts in the area, which rarely accepts student teachers. We are thrilled. He BF has had a good job these past 3 years and makes enough to support them both even if the worst occurs and she doesn’t get a job. He is a fine young man and they clearly love each other. He is nearly done paying off his college debt, after which the plan is to buy her a ring this summer and get married the next. They have as much chance of being happy as any young couple I can imagine

Second kid is studying Aero Engineering. Gets down on himself for not getting better grades. Has gotten 2 Cs in his first 2 years, and is just slightly below a B+ average and is worried about his job prospects. We’ve repeatedly told him that the occasional C is not the end of the world. But if he is going to get down on himself, he should look at whether he can study more or more effectively, or do other things to enhance his employment prospects. Meanwhile, he’s working fulltime a 2d summer for our village’s public works dept. Great experience! And helping me work on my 62 Corvair. Says he wants to get his hands dirty turning wrenches after all of his theorectical studies. And yesterday said the class he feared he would get a C in this semester - he got a B. Plans on paying his own way to study in Germany next summer. We said it sounds great, but before we can fully support it we’d like to see him put a fraction of the time planning it as he does one of his D&D campaigns! :stuck_out_tongue:

Youngest intends to get her degree in Molecular and Cellular Bio in 3 years. Just scored a lab position she very much desired. Quite a coup - which will have her staying at school next summer. And intends to pursue her PhD. She’s getting 35-45 hrs/week at 2 jobs over the summer.

So life is great. But you all don’t want to hear that kinda crap all the time, do you?

63

Just curious. What would you have done if she hadn’t turned over her report card? What if she’d just said “My grades slipped a bit but everything is fine, Dad. Ease off my back, please!” and didn’t give into your request to see her grades?

Would you really have pulled the plug on her tuition? Based on how much concern you’ve expressed over her dropping from summa to magna, I don’t really believe you’d really close the purse strings if she did that.

And really, I don’t think you’d have any cause to do so, not by a looooong shot. Her previous history should have counted for something (almost all A’s for 3 years…if that doesn’t buy the benefit of the doubt, what does?). I think you also should have shown her a long time ago that you trust her to manage her own performance. She’s certainly earned that by now by doing well in school, and she’s also an adult. Yes, she’s dependent on your money to go to school, but holding that over her head for petty reasons (and I do think this is petty), is a good way to keep her acting like a child. Not an adult.

When I was in undergrad, my GPA was very important to me, because I knew that if it dropped below a critical threshold I’d lose my scholarship. But because my parents helped to fund my housing, I guess they could have used that argument to access my grades just like you did. But I don’t remember them once asking to see my report card, let alone demanding it. I think it’s because they knew that the one person who cared the most about my grades was me. They respected my maturity enough to know that if I did poorly in a subject, nothing they could say would be more critical (even in a constructive sense) than what I’d already told myself. And they weren’t going to allow me to be homeless if I got a B instead of an A, so what was even the point of going there with the “I give you money!” ploy. I would have actually been insulted if they’d done that.

My parents probably would have micromanaged me if they thought I was about to flunk out, but I’d given them no reason to think that. Neither did your daughter.

64

Yeah, probably. It is funny that so many folk get the impression that we micro-manage every aspect of our kids’ lives. We are extremely demanding in some areas, but there are other vast areas in which we are very much hands off, and are happy to remain ignorant.

One thing we have constantly emphasized is that while in school their primary job is to get good grades and good experience. We feel that is one of the few things they can do to increase their options for later in life. We’ve also told them that success in school has 2 separate - but both important - aspects: learning the material, and getting the grade. Feel free to differ, but I’m surprised someone would think our position reflects bad parenting.

Also, in some areas of life, we value specific data instead of generalities. Sure, grades aren’t everything. But the objective grade is a data point to be interpreted, as opposed to a generalized statement that “I did okay” or somesuch. In the vast majority of life situations such clear indicia are not available, so I’m not about to close my eyes to it on the relatively infrequent situations that it is available. And I’m very aware of the dangers of overemphasizing what is easily quantifiable. But our personal choice is that in certain situations when specific data such as final grades exists, we want to see it. Anyone else is free to do otherwise.

And we do not want to control our kids with money. My FIL was that way until my wife decided to tell him to fuck off. My kids could certainly dothe same to us, to I’m certain we are nowhere near as controlling as he was.

But we have no desire to simply offer endless resources with nothing in return. I think too many people - young and old - expect a very comfortable living at very little cost to themselves. And I do not respect that mindset or encourage it in my kids. In the vast majority of situations, our financial and emotional support is primarily offered for nothing more than the kids being pleasant and contributing around the house. We also expect them to work - at least during breaks, and to get as good grades as possible while still enjoying college. If they don’t want to do that minimum, they have been expressly told that they were free to move out whenever they want.

I think it is extremely important that people realize the “costs” of their choices. Goofing off and getting Bs might be fun, but it might cost you the jobs the A student gets. Sure you want to buy that stuff now, but is it worth incurring debt? You are free to be independent, but you should realize - and shoulder - the time, money, and effort involved in maintaining a home/apt.

I think I said before that we did not regularly ask for grade print-outs. I think the kids generally provided them themselves. In fact, it was only after this kid failed to tell us her grades that the situation developed. This whole thing arose and was resolved in less than 2 hours in a single evening.

If my kids think our requesting grades is too much of an intrusion and would rather foot their college bills themselves, that is fine. I personally think that would be an incredibly stupid choice - and would tell them as much, but it is certainly their choice.

65

I think you are giving Dinsdale too hard a time. Many of you seem to be reading his posts through your own, almost traumatic upbringing. I can tell you that at every school I went to, and with 3 kids having selected schools I’ve been to over 20, it was my distinct impression that almost all parents expect to financially contribute to their kids education, and expect to know their grades. His arrangement is not unusual.

The colleges state that the parents have no “right”. But they also acknowledge that hardly anyone under 24 can afford to go to college, because the parent is expected to pay. (All of the financial aid forms require detailed financial data on the parents. Cornell even wants to know how much your cars cost when first acquired, whether the are leases or purchases, etc.) Basically, the federal government says the parents have no right, but a forced obligation. (Which works out very poorly for those estranged from their parents.) And parents are like anybody else. If they pay up tof $60K a year per kid, they expect to know something about what they are spending it on, beyond the address to which to write the check. And I can say that both instances I know of in which the parents did not get the grades, but paid the money, ended badly for the kids.

As far as being Dinsdale’s kid being reluctant to share their bad grades. What kid isn’t?

66

It is a little interesting that the trend seems to be that parents who’ve paid for college tend to support Dinsdale and people who’ve only been the student being supported have the opposite position.

In addition to the “I’m not paying for a 4 year party” comment upthread, I’ve long told my sons that my goal for them is for them to be happy, financially independent adults. As long as they are working towards that, I will support them (sometimes financially, sometimes other ways). I’ve used the expression that I’m their safety net, not their hammock.

Dinsdale did absolutely nothing wrong in insisting to see the grades as a condition of paying for tuition.

67

I find it somewhat amusing. A lot of folk are suggesting that I am infantalizing my kids by micro-managing them. But I’m trying to think of a whole lot of “adult” situations in which one someone is content to provide you with something of value while accepting only general assurances in return. Try that with your boss. Your landlord. Retailers, banks, and utilities. Or even (gasp!) your teachers! :stuck_out_tongue:

68

Serious question: why did you ask if you were so sure you handled this the best possible way, or that anyone who disagrees with you is hopelessly immature or indulgent ? I don’t think anyone here has called you a monster or anything–more a note that here, at the end of the dependent part of y’all’s relationship, less attention to detail might be appropriate.

69

Other than the getting high conversation, I’m like your daughter in that I’ll blab on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on to my mom. I love my mom and I feel she’s my best friend*.

I still have a VERY hard time telling her things that are important that I think she’d disagree with. I applied to a grad school program and still haven’t told her a thing about it, because I know she’ll think I’m making a mistake since I have a “nice professional” job. I can’t tell her I disagree with her on political stances because I know she’d get mad at me and think I’m stupid.
And this is while I simultaneously know she loves me incredibly much and thinks I’ve done really well in life. So I agree with JB.

  • Now, at (as of tomorrow) 28, after a lot of stormy times!
70

That’s not the part that bugged me. I think that’s entirely reasonable, and I think “I’m not paying for a four-year party” is a very reasonable attitude for a parent of a college student to have. It was his attitude about the grades themselves that bothered me.

71

Serious answer :wink: - I simply desired opinions WRT the situation. I’m continually impressed at how - no matter how you plan and prepare, as a parent you continually have to react to novel situations. And wee muddle through as best we can, but occasionally I appreciate a sounding board. In this case, after receiving 50+ responses, I was more comfortable than before as to the appropriateness of how we handled the situation.

Would you please be a little more specific as to what about my “attitude” bothered you? Thanks.

72

Not really your attitude, just how reluctant she was to show you her grades, made me think she might not feel like she can approach you when things aren’t going well for her. That just sounded awfully familiar to me from my relationship with my parents.

73

Thanks AN. It is so easy for miscommunicate on message boards.

74

As others have said, this is not really an issue for the college. The college should treat all of its students of legal age as adults with the right to privacy.

But if a parent or anyone else is paying for a student’s tuition, they have the right to insist on the student showing them the grades they are receiving.

75

I’m not saying you’re micromanaging every aspect, but with this aspect, I think you are. Your daughter is 22 and is only a few months shy of entering the “real world”, and yet you’re still trying to check up behind her as though she is in the 5th grade. The ridiculousness of cutting off her tuition (or threatening to do so) for a crime as egregious as not showing you her report card only underscores the fact that you really don’t have the ability to control her behavior in a truly reasonable manner. You can’t ground her or give her a time out, so you have to manipulate her using drastic threats.

If you were paying to put your wife through school, would you expect her to turn over her report card to prove to you that she wasn’t partying it away? Or would you just assume that she’s capable of monitoring her own progress, because she hasn’t given you any reason to think that she isn’t? What makes your adult children any different?

Going to school is might be your daughter’s “job”, but that doesn’t mean you are her “employer” just because you’re helping her out. And even if it did, a reasonable boss will take his/her subordinate at their word for most things. Those that don’t are called micromanagers and they are generally a pain to get along with.

76

All kids, however old, have difficulties telling their parents anything that might elicit disappointment or disapproval. I was told that the divorce rate spikes when one spouse’s, and especially both spouse’s, parents have died. You can’t disappoint them, or elicit any disapproval, if they’re dead. I believe we are initially hardwired for that. Later it might be socialized, it might be hardwired. (I “nature” or “nurture?” questions are like many quantum questions, unanswerable, so don’t ask them.) Furthermore, it is the parent’s “job” to provide negative as well as positive feedback. The same holds true for all social hierarchies. I’d certainly rather tell my boss good news than bad. That’s why we evolved caring parents, social hierarchies, etc. (Darwin doesn’t care if you’re happy, just that you continue a reproduction chain.) There are two ways to avoid negative feedback: don’t do anything that elicits such, or don’t provide any information that elicits such.

The only real question, is whether those grades should have elicited Dinsdale’s disapproval, or his daughter’s fear of his disapproval. If his daughter had been struggling through with Cs, than absolutely not. But given her demonstrated abilities, and my recollection of my wife’s education degree for which effort was the biggest grade determining factor, she was slacking off. I think it is safe to say that it will not have any impact on her employability, although maybe her ability to get a job in some ultra desired school district.

Was that degree of slacking enough to warrant disapproval? Every kid is different, and not knowing Dinsdale’s, I’m in no position to judge. I’ve told my two oldest to stop working so hard, and enjoy college (and HS). My third will require no such advice, and has required the occasional kick in the pants. Parenting involves somehow treating all your kids fairly, and all of them differently.

77

I can not imagine a healthy marriage in which one partner goes to school, and the other does not know how they are doing. “Two become one” and all that.

78

Expecting a spouse to keep you informed is one thing. I would hope if I were putting an SO through school, they’d tell me how they are doing.

Demanding to see their report card is another thing. It’s infantalizing and indicates an unwillingness to fork over trust.

79

It is curious how differently different people can view the same things. I don’t view it as “checking up on,” “controlling,” “micromanaging,” or “manipulating” her. Instead, I view it more as a contract. If she wishes me to contribute to her education, I am happy to do so. But in return I request a few things - that she make progress towards a degree, obtain decent grades, and not get into significant legal or behavioral problems. If she doesn’t like those conditions, she is free to exercise whatever other options she may feel are available to her.

Seriously, you see no difference in how you would behave in relationship to a spouse of 2 decades, as opposed to young adults under age 25 who have never been fully independent? In any event, tho I earn probably 90% of our family income, all of our money is in common. So the idea of me “paying for” her education would ever cross my mind.

Suffice it to say that your experience is different than mine. Sure, after an employee demonstrates competence, it is better for everyone concerned if the boss doesn’t check up on and demand confirmation of every task. But following big projects, at review time - or even any time the boss feels like it, there is absolutely nothing inappropriate with the following exchange:

Boss: Did you finish that assignment?"
Employee: Sure did!
Boss: Great! E-mail me a copy of your final report.

If the employee’s response is anything other than “Sure thing, boss!”, IMO that is someone who had better look into the possibility of working for himself. The boss most certainly is not always correct. But he/she most definitely is always the boss.

80

If I were the only one working and paying for my spouse to go to college and she didn’t share the progress info would indicate deeper problems than me asking/demanding to see it. That trust goes both ways.