We’ve all seen it. A non-parent weighs in on a discussion about children, and no matter how small the issue is, a parent tells him/her that to be quiet, because only someone with children would be qualified to have an opinion. What makes parenthood a special case that must be experienced firsthand, unlike, well, everything else in the world that people form opinions about?
I don’t have any kids, although I have been raising a teenager for awhile, but I haven’t had an issue that I felt no one else would understand unless they were taking care of a teen, too.
I don’t have kids, but I think a lot of the time when people say “you have to have kids to understand” what they mean is 'There is something YOU don’t seem to get" or “There is some value we don’t seem to share” but it seems impolite and confrontational to bring that up, so they say “only a parent could understand”–it’s a version of “It’s not you, it’s ____________”
Well, remembering back before I had kids to now (I have an 11 and a 14 yo)- there were definitely things I didn’t “get” until I had kids- even when I thought I did! I had baby sat and worked as a counselor and spent tons of time around nieces and nephews and there were some things I had no clue about, even though I thought I did!
And raising a teen now, there are definitely things I didn’t get about raising a teen before that I do now!
Just like my SIL who is a great parent of an only child doesn’t get the change in dynamic having a second child brings into the mix. Somethings are learned through experience, no matter how empathetic or smart a person is.
I agree with IvoryTD on this one. We have two children (24 & 23) and I certainly think people who are childless really don’t understand some things about raising kids (especially multiple). However, to the OP’s point, there are ways of discussing without being rude to those without the experience, and many people don’t seem to be able to figure out how to do this.
I’m sorry, there are just so many counter-examples it’s funny. Are you familiar with the phrase, “It’s a black thing, you wouldn’t understand”? Tons of discussions here have people jumping in saying that those without the proper background just don’t know. Check out threads about poverty, racism, male issues, female issues, rape victims, etc.
Having a particular experience changes you. When you hear an opinion that is fundamentally at odds with how you see things espoused by someone without that particular experience it’s easy to dismiss that opinion as naive. Especially if that’s a viewpoint YOU held prior to having the experience.
So, to answer your question, there’s nothing special about parenthood in this regard. The same issue pops up everywhere.
It’s funny that you should use that example, because I am black, and while I do believe that experiences often do give you a different level of insight into a situation, which is why diversity is important, I’ve come to realize that there is no one “____ experience,” that should automatically give one person’s opinions more weight than another’s. While you might not have lived through ____ you might be able to draw from another experience, and may have valuable insight that shouldn’t be automatically dismissed out of hand. There really is no “a ____ thing” because, my experience as a ____ is often going to be completely different than your experience as a ____, and we’re going to be affected by it in different ways.
The thing is, though, that some people do seem to believe that there’s something special about parenthood in this regard. They’re basically who inspired the thread, because I’ve seen that occur more often than the other examples you’ve mentioned. You hear it in real life, but to use the internet as an example, a poster will, tell a non parent that they don’t understand, then proceed to weigh in on how to beat the NY Yankees, how to approach Ahmadinejad, and how to fix the public school system. Of course, the experts wouldn’t give their opinions much weight. So, maybe that’s partially what’s behind the ruder responses **Varrius **mentioned. People like to believe they know more than they do, so *they *can weigh in on anything, but dislike it when a non expert does the same thing to them.
That makes sense.
ITD, It seems that what you’re talking about goes go beyond JohnT’s statement about realizing you’re in it for the long haul, and are 100% responsible. Could you give an example?
I agree with this, and have discovered it’s true even within the context of parenting. Before my son hit the terrible twos, I cluck-clucked at a friend’s son’s behavior, and her reactions to it. I wondered why she couldn’t control him better at times, why she didn’t do this or that. Now that my son acts out in similar ways, I have a better understanding of (and empathy towards) what she was going through.
Yes, but if I, a white guy, say to somebody else “you just don’t understand what it’s like being a black woman” I would deservedly be laughed out of the conversation regardless of how much I read, how many black women I’ve interviewed, etc.
Ask any parent if the idea they had of parenting before they had kids has conformed to their actual experience, and when they stop laughing (or crying, one of those anyway), they’ll tell you no.
Thing is, *no one *knows how to parent. There are way too many variables to make a coherent rulebook, so all anyone can do is figure it out as they go. This is frustrating, disheartening, and fucking terrifying. So when someone who has never had to do it starts giving us advice, which reinforces our suspicions that we’re doing it wrong, and makes us feel criticized and unfairly judged in the same way that you would if a trust-funder started disparaging your financial acumen, it gets our backs up.
So the thing is you really DON’T get it, *and *you’re pushing our buttons. Proceed at your own risk.
DianaG is right. Parents go through a humbling process where they realize that many of the things they believed about being a parent don’t work in practice. We end up both guilty and amused at our failure to be the perfect parents of the perfect children we envisioned. So you do push buttons - while simultaneously sounding rather cute.
My kids will not be picky eaters. Then you get the kid with sensory and texture issues who projectile vomits across the table the time you decide to hold the line on it.
My kids will have an early bedtime - and after six weeks of three hour bedtimes involving the cops showing up at the door because the neighbor cannot believe a child can scream that long, you determine that a ten o’clock bedtime that isn’t a battleground is a reasonable compromise.
Of course I’ll breastfeed - then your child doesn’t latch, and you pump, but end up with mastitis and you haven’t slept for days and…formula isn’t feeding your kid Coke.
Most parents had pretty firm ideas about what they would do regarding the most important task of their lives. And those ideas had to change to fit reality. Therefore, there is a certain innocence - naivete - about statements made by non-parents about parenting.
Well, sure if you frame it like that. I don’t think it’d be right to run you out of a conversation on black women’s issues, if you were contributing in good faith, and not dismissing everyone else’s opinions though. I can think of at least a couple of times in race threads SDMB when posters who assumed I was white tried to wave away my views. If I was looking for help with “my” teen, I’d think that the Manda Jo’s of the world, for example, who work with teenagers every day, might have as many useful tips to share as a parent of a teen. Even someone who doesn’t work with kids or teens, has been a child or teen and has had the same sort of past experiences that parents sometimes draw off of when taking care of their kids.
I understand what you are saying, and ignorant self-righteousness is never attractive, but I do think non-parents can still offer a valid perspective: “Aren’t you breastfeeding? Don’t you know it’s better?” is obnoxious. 'You’re worried your 6 year old seems really clingy and insecure? Do you think he’s picking up on your marital problems?" (That was a real conversation, and the woman in question was like “I don’t think he knows” when she and her husband weren’t even speaking.)
Now then, unsolicited advise is never welcome, and very rarely a good idea. However, if a person complains to me about something, I am going to offer suggestions. I am not naturally a person that just listens to people vent. If it’s someone I don’t know well, it’s fine, but there are people who complain to me every single day (or at least weekly) about the trials of child rearing. In those cases, I can’t imagine having to just listen (for years now) and keep my mouth shut because “I don’t really know”. If you don’t want my perspective, don’t talk to me. I’m not going to be mean or mind if you accept my point of view, but I am not just going to sit there making soothing noises.
What if it’s something that doesn’t relate to the idea of not being able to walk away from responsibility, etc.? Like in the thread about the little kid who was made to cry (the anti smoking one), a lot of people didn’t see it as a big deal, and I remember Dio being all, “Do you have kids? No? Then STFU.” I’d like to think that I’d find crying little kids just as amusing as when I spawn as I do now. (Which is to say…not hardly funny, at all!)
I agree that what is irksome is primarily when our childless friends are judgmental (for example, thinking we’re not strict enough, failing to understand that parenthood compels you to choose your battles) based on how they think they would raise their hypothetical children. It’s easy to say, in the abstract, “I wouldn’t let my child watch TV/eat sugar/do X or Y or Z”, but the reality of parenting forces you to make some compromises that you maybe didn’t think you would have to make, prior to having kids.
This is very true. Before I had kids of my own, there were a lot of things that I thought I would do, or not do, as a parent. I stuck to some of them, but others fell by the wayside as I learned to deal with the reality of my actual children. That’s an experience that the person telling me, “I wouldn’t tolerate my child ever crying in a grocery store,” or “If I had kids, they’d learn from day 1 that their toys would be put away or they’d get thrown in the trash” or whatever has not had. (Both statements were actually made to my face by a person who does not have children, by the way.)
I am a lot more tolerant of people trying to give advice, even if the advice is inapplicable or unhelpful, than I am of people telling me how they would raise their hypothetical children better than I am raising my actual children.
As a childless person, I think much of what has been said brings up valid points about why what I might have to say about kid issues might be of limited value. There is that huge responsibilty thing, the fact that you absolutely have to find a workable compromise because, unlike even marriage, you can’t walk away from the situation if the other party (the kid) won’t play fair.
One other reason parents might find contributions from the childless annoying is because I think we tend to see things from the position of the child, since that’s the side of it we have experienced. Sometimes that may be valuable, if the parent is so enmeshed in their parental perspective they don’t also see it from the other perspective (like the marital silent treatment example upthread). But hearing from someone who relates to the other side of an issue is often annoying, especially if you mainly want to vent.
One hundred percent of parenting is done by amateurs. This is true no matter how many children you have. I thought I had it all figured out after daughter #1, and was completely unprepared when EVERYTHING but the plumbing about daughter #2 was different. I mean NOTHING that worked well with the first one worked on the second; I was starting over from scratch.
Sure there are certain very broad constants, like don’t be abusive, feed when she’s hungry, change diaper when it’s wet, try to be as consistent as you can, but it’s all play it as it goes.
Its very, very easy before you’re a parent to decide how you’re going to deal with various things, but it’s very, very hard to follow your own rules afterward 100%.
Before I had children I knew I wanted them and would love them. I didn’t know how that would feel, though, and looking at your own newborn that you grew inside of yourself is not comparable to anything else. The fierce protectiveness of a parent cannot be imagined or foreseen.
I think that they often can offer a valid perspective. And often their suggestions are well informed - by having younger siblings or nephews and nieces - or by common sense.
But often non-parental opinions DO come off as naive. And, so very often, you get the triple whammy of naive, self righteous and judgmental.
But they raise their hypothetical children so well! They can be taken out to dinner at a restaurant without risking a scene because they’ve been taught to behave. Its that simple.