Parts of LOTR lore that you don't really get

Cafe Society
21

I’m vaguely troubled by Tolkien’s presentation of the Dwarves, but I’m not sure exactly why. For some reason they didn’t manage to keep up with the other races of the legendarium. Out of all the major peoples of Middle-Earth, I think they’re the only ones that Tolkien unambiguously indicates become extinct, which just seems unfair somehow. Sure, they may have had fertility problems, but they were able to manage just fine for three Ages.

Did Tolkien intend to imply that the Dwarves ultimately failed as a people because they were only foster-kids, not true Children of Eru? Because compared to Elves and Men, it seems like the Dwarves were by far the least troublesome.

Honestly, for a Vala ostensibly on the side of good, Aule was pretty much a nonstop walking disaster, wasn’t he? He creates an indestructible race of super-craftsmen, who turn out obsessed with greed and revenge, and then die out like bearded sea monkeys. He teaches the Noldor how to craft gems, and it immediately blows up in their faces. Given a choice between being cursed by Morgoth or having Aule do me a favor, I’d have to sit down and think that one over for a bit.

Speaking of Aule and the Noldor… If you really, really needed to have a sword made with the absolute finest workmanship in Middle-Earth, would the Dwarves or the Elves do a better job? On the one hand, the Elves have the benefit of thousands of years of accumulated experience. On the other hand, the Dwarves are the mind-children of the Smith-God himself, which has to count for a lot.

22

Shades if Wagner’s Ring. :slight_smile:

23

Thranduil?!

24

I absolutely love Tolkien, but I’ve read it once too often, so that now I realize that the answer to any question is, “It’s a plot device”. Pity.

That’s not the only goof. In Chapter 1 of TFOTR, the dragon firework if described as “like an express train”. Elsewhere, Tolkien avoids using modern references, but that one slipped through.

25

Not to mention that Sauron was originally a maia of Aulë…

26

Well, obviously you’re looking at it the wrong way round. Yes, machines and gears and levers and cogs are bad… when they’re not in clocks. If clocks were evil, then Sauron would have been called the Horologist instead of the Necromancer.

Clocks are good because they allow us to more easily appreciate our own mortality and the rate at which the Ages of the world pass as magic slowly disappears from our lives forever. Plus they tell us when it’s time for supper.

27

Here’s a question. What WAS the power of The Ring? Other than making the wearer invisible and a crack-head?

28

Terrifel, I get the impression that the Dwarves are a late addition to Tolkien’s cosmology–he’s pasting together different mythical traditions. (Although the fact that dwarves killed King Thingol in The Silmarillion detracts from the idea that they were a post-Hobbit addition.)

But there’s a contradiction given that in Hobbit/LOTR, elven blades are magical and lightsaber-like. In the Silmarillion, the Dwarves make the best blades due to their superior craftmanship.

Elven technology is more magical when it’s rare.

29

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

IOW, you could control all the other rings. 3 of the Elves, 7 for the dwarfs, and nine for Men. But it had other powers, too.

30

The Ring made you Instant Hitler. You enjoyed unrivaled political power and the armies under your command were near-invincible.

IMO, Tolkien does a poor job of explaining this, and the invisibility function becomes increasingly inconvenient to the plot (hence putting it on in Mordor is a no-no). Boromir didn’t try to take the Ring from Frodo because he wanted to become invisible, but because he felt it would have made him a great general, with a (doomed) chance of defeating Sauron’s armies. (BTW, Rings of Power only make men and hobbits invisible.)

31

What more do you need, man?

32

I am not disputing your remark, but I am curious where that is writtten. :slight_smile:

33

Though I’m less read than others here, I’ll take a stab at this and say that the specific power is unnamed and immeterial. In the same way that Tolkien’s magic-users rarely wield power by casting specific spells, but are powerful because they are magic, so the ring also grants power without giving specific, quantifiable abilities.

There’s very little curse-slinging in all of Tolkien’s world. It’s more about states of power and control.

34

So was Saruman, if I recall correctly.

Everyone makes a big deal out of Aragorn’s descent, but considering the time that had passed, wouldn’t all the Dunadain and probably a lot of Gondor’s population also be descendants of the Numenorean kings and hence all those fancy people you mentioned?

One thing that bothers me about Tolkien’s world is that the elves were originally put in Middle Earth, so why do they all have to end up in the Undying Lands? Ok, they didn’t have to go but clearly all the most virtuous elves wanted to go. In the Silmarillion, it’s mentioned that Ulmo didn’t think inviting the elves to Valinor was such a good idea, which I thought was interesting.

35

Elves are bound to the fate of Arda. While it endures, they endure, though if slain by violence their spirits go to the halls of Mandos. So, fate rules the entire spiritual being of elves, and as they endure the ages, the physical being they have becomes less, as their spirits become more, in the end being but raiment, with the light of their being shining through.

Men are not bound in this way, and have a destiny beyond Arda. What exactly that is was not shared with the Vala, nor was it a theme in the great music of the Ainur from before the world was made. Dwarves remain as they were made, imperfect, and reflecting Aule’s character, including his faults. Although they are created by him, they have life only from Eru, which was given to them because of Eru’s love for Aule. That doesn’t make it a good deal for the Dwarves themselves.

Some Elves actually die. Luthien, who chose the doom of men for the love of Beren. Elros, who became a man, and became King of Numenor. His brother Elron chose to be an elf, and the choice was given to his descendants to choose as well. Arwen chose the doom of men for the love of Aragorn. It is hinted that she was greatly distressed when the true nature of that choice became apparent. Tolkien seems to feel that love is the most perilous choice of all.

The Ring is the repository of the greater part of Sauron’s inherent power. It gives power according to the stature of the wearer, and must be compelled to act by a strong will, and even so seeks on its own to do what its own nature impells. Domination of the spirits of the living is its true nature. It is very powerful on the hand of a powerful person. All who might see Galadriel, were she to wear the ring would love her, and despair. Gandalf could order the world according to his wishes, and no force or mind could resist him. But the nature of the ring itself would overpower their own nature, and create out of them the very thing they wish to defeat.

Golum could be unseen, and stealthy without fear of being caught. He could make others fear him. But he is puny in spirit, and his uses of the ring puny as well. Bilbo was more able to use it to gain power, and overcome spiders, and such. But he was not interested in dominion over others. So, the ring was not powerful over him, nor was he much magnified in his timid desires by it. Frodo gains complete domination of Gollum without even wearing it, and likewise Sam sends virtual hordes of orcs fleeing from it by merely touching it. He seeks to disperse a fort full of orcs, and they do in fact disperse. But Sam does not desire dominion either. He is poor prey for the will of Sauron.

Tris

36

Actually, not all of the best elves did want to go. They eventually did because they were supposed to go there eventually and not return (at elast until all the humans had vacated the premises or the day of doom was at hand). Problem was, some of them came back, and caused a great deal of trouble.

But Cirdan the Shipwright was a rather nice and pretty bright fellow and managed to avoid causing or receiving any catastrophes while sheparding his fellows for eons.

37

Actually, they’re first cousins multiple times removed.

38

My bad. Thingol.

39

Well, I think I get this, but this seems to say more that Elves in general cannot completely disregard Men as a race, because as a race they do have a part to play throughout the Ages. But on an individual level?

Well, long lived for a Man – he lived till what, 180 or so? How old was Arwen when they met, about 4000? That’s beyond cradle robbing. I’m not even really kidding – I mean, realistically, no matter how great a Numenorean he is, the most badass since Elendil, how could he compare to say, her own brothers? Her father??

What I’m getting at is Tolkien went on about the greatness of Men in their own right, but on an individual level I don’t understand how they’re supposed to measure up (in terms of skill, wisdom, etc.) at all. I’m not even talking about romantic relationships only; how does any Elf ever really have any reason to seriously befriend any Man or Dwarf? (BTW, I phrased the androgynous Dwarf issue as a joke, but really, it does sort of weird me out.)

Qadgop, I thought that was a really good summary actually.

40

Read Ainulindalë, or The Music of the Ainur, in The Silmarillion. It will explain a lot.

It’s late, I’ve got to fly to Boston in the morning.

Ta!