LOTR question(s)

Cafe Society
1

I did do a search, but didn’t find this particular question. I am sitting here, imbibing sambuca and re-watching the EE of the Fellowship of the Ring. This occurred to me:

Why is it that Frodo gets to go to the Grey Havens? Sure, ok, he was the Ringbearer–but he did not give up the Ring willingly, in fact, he failed in his task. Gollum couldn’t go to the Grey Havens because he got deep fat fried (and perhaps his soul wasn’t pure? or something like that).
I’m sure I’ll have more questions as I watch more (if the sambuca doesn’t drop me off to sleep or make me intelligileb–that.)

Also, what is the whisper that is murmured when Frodo holds the Ring? Is it Baggins? or what?

Tolkien Fan Entmoot
2

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
I did do a search, but didn’t find this particular question. I am sitting here, imbibing sambuca and re-watching the EE of the Fellowship of the Ring. This occurred to me:

Why is it that Frodo gets to go to the Grey Havens? Sure, ok, he was the Ringbearer–but he did not give up the Ring willingly, in fact, he failed in his task. Gollum couldn’t go to the Grey Havens because he got deep fat fried (and perhaps his soul wasn’t pure? or something like that).
I’m sure I’ll have more questions as I watch more (if the sambuca doesn’t drop me off to sleep or make me intelligileb–that.)

Also, what is the whisper that is murmured when Frodo holds the Ring? Is it Baggins? or what?
[/QUOTE]

I’m not one of the LOTR experts here, but I always thought the Frodo gets to go because he did a great service for middle earth in general and the elves specifically.

3

I would say that it was because his soul had been damaged and heading for the undying lands would allow him to heal over time. The world recognized that he’d been pushed past any reasonable endurance (same with Bilbo) and should be given a break.

I actually raised the Gollum question a while back. I think he might have been able to go.

4

Oh, I should have said. (maybe I’ve had too much sambuca) that the reason he goes is because he was the Ringbearer-or so I thought…

Oh, and what are the lyrics that are sung when Frodo is attacked with the Morgul blade on Weathertop? It sounds like Latin, but I’m sure it’s elf or something…

5

This may just be the film, but what is the statue that the sword fragments lie on?

Oh, and “do you remember the when we first met?” has got to be the worst line in all the films. Just syain

6

Actually, I thought Aragorn’s response was worse: “The Uruk-hai wore gray, you wore blue.”

I mean, come on!

:smiley:

7

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
This may just be the film, but what is the statue that the sword fragments lie on?
[/QUOTE]

Since it IS just the movie, I don’t think there’s any way of knowing. In the book, Aragorn was in the habit of carrying the broken sword around with him, as far as I recall.

8

[QUOTE=kaylasdad99]
Actually, I thought Aragorn’s response was worse: “The Uruk-hai wore gray, you wore blue.”
[/QUOTE]

Bravo.

9

My sister has twice sung in the chorus for performances of Howard Shore’s Lord of the Rings Symphony. According to the translation she gave me, when Frodo holds the One Ring, you hear whispering of a portion of the Ring’s inscription, in the Black Speech of Mordor:

One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the land of Mordor where the Shadows lie

When the Nazgul attack on Weathertop, you hear in Adunaic (the ancient language of Numenor) this:

We deny our maker
We cling to the darkness
We grasp for ourselves power and glory
Now we come, the Nine,
Lords of eternal life.

10

[QUOTE=Tenar]
Since it IS just the movie, I don’t think there’s any way of knowing. In the book, Aragorn was in the habit of carrying the broken sword around with him, as far as I recall.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. In all my reading about the movies’ production, I’ve never seen a name given to that Rivendell sculpture.

11

[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir]
Agreed. In all my reading about the movies’ production, I’ve never seen a name given to that Rivendell sculpture.
[/QUOTE]

I just happen to be watching that part right now and logic suggests it’s one of four people seeing as that particular area of Rivendell seems devoted to the battle:

Elrond (he can forge Narsil into Anduril)
Aragorn (long shot, but he is the Heir)
Isildur (he used the sword to cut the ring off)
Elendil (Narsil was originally his)

The statue doesn’t really look Elvish and it’s wearing robes that a King (or someone Regal) would possibly wear so I’m going with Isildur or Elendil. Peter Jackson probably knows, it IS his movie.

12

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Why is it that Frodo gets to go to the Grey Havens? Sure, ok, he was the Ringbearer–but he did not give up the Ring willingly, in fact, he failed in his task.
[/QUOTE]

Okay, first of all, the Grey Havens wasn’t anything that special: just a seaport in Middle-Earth. What is significant is that Frodo, Bilbo,and eventually Sam get to go to the Undying Lands. Why, by the way, are only “undying” in the sense that immortals dwell that, not that make mortals live longer; I suspect the Bagginses died sooner there than they would have otherwise, rather than longer.

Frodo gets to go to the Undying Lands because he is so grievously wounded in body and spirit in the service of Middle-Earth, and there is no healing to be had for him there. Also, I’d say that he does NOT fail in his task, because it is NOT his task to destroy the ring. His task is to take the ring to where it may be destroyed, trusting in providence to handle the ultimate obliteration. True, he was seduced by the ring ultimately, but I think anyone would have; and if Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn, or Faramir had essayed to carry the ring there, they would have falle more quickly than he, not because their wills were less but because their innate power (and thus the ring’s potential to subvert them) was greater. Frodo was the best possible bearer because he had the odd combination of great will and practically inherent power.

(And no, I don’t think Samwise could have carried the ring nearly half as far. True, he does voluntarily give the ring back to Frodo, but he only had it in his possession for a few hours, and he never thought of it as “his”; he thought of it as something he was taking back to his master. Ownership or desire for ownership of the Ring was a large part of being subverted by it, and I suspect that if Frodo had truly died in Shelob’s lair and Sam had been obliged to take up the quest on his own, he’d have succumbed long ere Mt. Doom.)

13

I don’t understand the Grey Havens, and the elves going off to the undying lands. I understand why it is necessary for the story (the time of Man is coming) but what is the rationale of the elves? Why don’t all inhabitants of Middle earth emigrate, if it is so much better there, and leave Sauron to rule a nasty empty country with nothing but Orcs?

14

[QUOTE=Maastricht]
I don’t understand the Grey Havens, and the elves going off to the undying lands. I understand why it is necessary for the story (the time of Man is coming) but what is the rationale of the elves? Why don’t all inhabitants of Middle earth emigrate, if it is so much better there, and leave Sauron to rule a nasty empty country with nothing but Orcs?
[/QUOTE]

For awhile the Undying Lands (more properly named Aman) was a part of the world. But Sauron persuaded King Ar-Pharazôn of Númenor that whoever ruled Aman would be immortal as well (a mortal there, as noted above, does not become immortal living there). So the king sailed west to make war on the Valar. This was hopeless since the Valar were almost gods (they witnessed Iluvatar create the world then descended into it) and whomped the king.

To not allow it to happen again the Valar had the island removed from the world such that it would be forever inaccessible to man. Elves however could still sail there if they wanted to.

15

[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
True, he was seduced by the ring ultimately, but I think anyone would have; and if Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn, or Faramir had essayed to carry the ring there, they would have falle more quickly than he, not because their wills were less but because their innate power (and thus the ring’s potential to subvert them) was greater. Frodo was the best possible bearer because he had the odd combination of great will and practically inherent power.

[/QUOTE]

I do not think it had anything to do with willpower. I believe Hobbits in general possessed an innate incorruptibility of spirit. Every race had their unique “gifts” (for lack of a better word) and this was theirs. Bilbo and Frodo were even stronger in this characteristic than most Hobbits. As such the Ring had a much harder time corrupting them.

I doubt it had anything to do with “power” that made you more susceptible to the ring. Smeagol (aka Gollum) has no particular power and is corrupted by the ring almost immediately. Gandalf could probably resist it a little bit. Men would be corrupted almost instantly. Elves could probably hold out a little bit too. Dwarves longer than men but not as long as Elves. None of them for long though at all.

It is one of the charms of the story that the seemingly powerless race of Hobbits with no particular martial skills or magic were the only ones who could possibly have carried the Ring.

16

While we’re waiting for Qadgop to give us chapter and verse, Arwen gave her voyage to the Undying lands to Frodo. This is symbolised by the white gem he wears. A better question is why Sam gets to go. Presumably it’s out of his love for Frodo but when he goes he’s well over 100.

17

Frodo got to go to the undying lands for his great service. Much as Tuor was allowed to remain in the undying lands and alone among immortals did not go to Mandos Halls. Tuor is counted as among the Eldar, the one known exception.

Frodo, Bilbo an Samwise were all allowed to go to Valinor. In Frodo’s case it was to be healed and find peace. None of this indicates that the 3 Hobbits were numbered among the Eldar or that they lived much past their allotted years. One of the great mistakes Ar-Phazon made was thinking (being deceived by Sauron) that in conquering Valinor, he would not die.

There is one letter where Tolkien addresses the subject of the Hobbits going to Valinor. **QtM ** probably knows the one I mean. In this letter he states that he does not believe that Frodo would still be alive.

Finally in the appendix, it mentions that Gimli took passage with Legolas to the Undying lands after Aragorn passed away. The first Dwarf to be in the undying lands since the seven fathers.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
This may just be the film, but what is the statue that the sword fragments lie on?
[/QUOTE]

Just the film. Just a silly little addition. Aragorn carried the shards with him in the book and indeed his use of the broken sword Narsil was partial proof to the Hobbit’s that he was the one that Gandalf sent to help them.

“All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost; the old that is strong does not wither, deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.”

This little poem that Bilbo actually wrote, referenced Narsil that was reforged into Anduril and was at the bottom of the letter that Gandalf wrote.

[QUOTE=Maastricht]
I don’t understand the Grey Havens, and the elves going off to the undying lands. I understand why it is necessary for the story (the time of Man is coming) but what is the rationale of the elves? Why don’t all inhabitants of Middle earth emigrate, if it is so much better there, and leave Sauron to rule a nasty empty country with nothing but Orcs?
[/QUOTE]

Men were not allowed and many elves loved Middle-Earth too much to make the journey in the first place and then the Noldorians that returned were long banned from returning. Once they could return, most did, but a few chose not to.

[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
I do not think it had anything to do with willpower. I believe Hobbits in general possessed an innate incorruptibility of spirit. Every race had their unique “gifts” (for lack of a better word) and this was theirs. Bilbo and Frodo were even stronger in this characteristic than most Hobbits. As such the Ring had a much harder time corrupting them.

I doubt it had anything to do with “power” that made you more susceptible to the ring. Smeagol (aka Gollum) has no particular power and is corrupted by the ring almost immediately. Gandalf could probably resist it a little bit. Men would be corrupted almost instantly. Elves could probably hold out a little bit too. Dwarves longer than men but not as long as Elves. None of them for long though at all.

It is one of the charms of the story that the seemingly powerless race of Hobbits with no particular martial skills or magic were the only ones who could possibly have carried the Ring.
[/QUOTE]

Hobbits did not have an “innate incorruptibility of spirit”. However; they were far more so than humans. Frodo and Bilbo were believed exceptional among Hobbits by Gandalf. Frodo perhaps the most exceptional. He surprised even Gandalf at times.

The One Ring in the hands of a dwarf is an open question, the 7 rings failed to have the effect that Sauron expected. It did not corrupt them, in the way that the 9 corrupted the men. It simply played upon the worst traits of dwarves. It greatly exaggerated their greed and pride.

[QUOTE=Quartz]
While we’re waiting for Qadgop to give us chapter and verse, Arwen gave her voyage to the Undying lands to Frodo. This is symbolised by the white gem he wears. A better question is why Sam gets to go. Presumably it’s out of his love for Frodo but when he goes he’s well over 100.
[/QUOTE]

Remember Bilbo was far older, older than the Old Took. As I mentioned above, all three Ring Bearers were allowed to go.

Jim

18

And in one of the LOTR appendices, IIRC, Tolkien said it was “rumored” or “said by some” that Legolas and Gimli also took ship “into the West.”

19

[QUOTE=kaylasdad99]
Actually, I thought Aragorn’s response was worse: “The Uruk-hai wore gray, you wore blue.”

I mean, come on!

:smiley:
[/QUOTE]

Brilliant! :slight_smile:

Ok, I remember now about Aragorn toting around the fragments and all. But that statue is a woman, for sure–it cannot be one of the kings. I thought it could be a representation of some female godlike critter (never read Silmarillion, don’t ask me to-I get to page 5 and give up). You know, some reference that deep, [del]obsessed[/del] fans would “get” and no one else. Oh, well.
Re this Ringbearer business. :dubious:

[QUOTE=skald]
Frodo gets to go to the Undying Lands because he is so grievously wounded in body and spirit in the service of Middle-Earth, and there is no healing to be had for him there. Also, I’d say that he does NOT fail in his task, because it is NOT his task to destroy the ring. His task is to take the ring to where it may be destroyed, trusting in providence to handle the ultimate obliteration.
[/QUOTE]

By this criteria, Isildur (or however you spell it) should have gotten to go–he also failed in destroying the ring, but did bring it to where it needed to go.

I am now on TT EE CD #2 (god, it’s beginning to look like code). Probably my favorite part. Please understand, I am watching this Rigby-style: Watch the entire Fellowship. Once get to TT, start skipping Gollum/Frodo/Sam. Skip Saruman and new order of Orcs. Watch Edoras bits, every minute of Aragorn, Eowyn etc. Watch flashbacks of Arwen and Aragorn. Rewind and–just kidding.
Sorry, but there it is. (I prefer to read about Frodo/Gollum, not watch it-although I think that all the performances were good).

Elendil’s Heir–thank you! That adds a depth of horror to the whole scene. The score to this (and Harry Potter, just sayin’) are so beautiful.

<prepares to be beaten down textually by fans, experts and the like>

20

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Hobbits did not have an “innate incorruptibility of spirit”. However; they were far more so than humans. Frodo and Bilbo were believed exceptional among Hobbits by Gandalf. Frodo perhaps the most exceptional. He surprised even Gandalf at times.
[/QUOTE]

I did not mean “innate incorruptibility” to imply they were completely incorruptible. Obviously that is not true as Frodo succumbs. I meant it as you said…they were considerably more incorruptible than any other race or even the likes of Gandalf (a Maiar) were.