Parts of LOTR lore that you don't really get

Cafe Society
81

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
This is not true, Tuor and Idril are still alive, in this the Human made the sacrifice and has to live forever with a beautiful, ever-young elf maid.
[/QUOTE]

Ooh, tough life. :smiley:

Thank you, though. I thought after I had posted that there was an exception somewhere but I couldn’t remember who it was, and my books are at home. As it turns out, though, no wonder I didn’t remember–Tuor and Idril aren’t as interesting to me as most of the other couples. (perhaps because they didn’t end tragically?)

After arseNal’s last post, I’m now thinking of slacker stoner Elves, sitting at the bases of the trees for years and years.

82

[QUOTE=toadspittle]
How many HP for Aragorn? How many for Legolas? And is Narsil a +1? What about after re-forging? :wink:
[/QUOTE]
For the (probably few) people reading this thread who don’t know about it, the hilarious DM of the Rings

[QUOTE=Telperien]
After arseNal’s last post, I’m now thinking of slacker stoner Elves, sitting at the bases of the trees for years and years.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and I tried to make a joke about Karaoke Decade in the Lothlorien treetops but it didn’t come out too well.

83

[QUOTE=Telperien]

After arseNal’s last post, I’m now thinking of slacker stoner Elves, sitting at the bases of the trees for years and years.
[/QUOTE]

You mean the ones getting drunk on good wine and singing Tra-la-la in the Valley?

Yes, I actually think a lot elves did have some slacker and stoner in them. I think I would to, if I had so much time in front of me.

Jim

84

[QUOTE=SuaSponte]
An even more basic question. The line of kings was unbroken during those 1000 years; after the northern kingdom fell, they hung out as Rangers for a millenia. Why didn’t any of them claim the kingship of Gondor long before Aragorn?

Sua
[/QUOTE]

Like I said- it wasn’t just an Heir showing up. Besides the fact Aragorn was the Hero of the day, the Steward was dead, and the Steward’s heir wanted Aragorn to become King. If Aragorn had just walked up to Denethor and said “I am the Heir” Denethor would have laughed.

85

[QUOTE=toadspittle]
My problems with LoTR:

  • Cirdan’s beard

  • Relative strength, height, etc. of men, elves, and dwarves. The hobbit-man dichotomy has been pretty well spelled out, but it’s unclear how the other 3 races fit. Who can bench the most, Men or Dwarves? Who can swing a meaner sword, men or elves? Who is taller, Legolas or Aragorn? And for that matter, how tall and strong are the average (non-Uruk-hai) orcs?
    [/QUOTE]

I don’t have the encyclopedic knowledge of Tolkien that some other posters have so I can only help with one of these questions. From FoTR: “Aragorn was the tallest of the Company, but Boromir, little less in height, was broader and heavier in build.”

86

[QUOTE=Telperien]
I’m now thinking of slacker stoner Elves, sitting at the bases of the trees for years and years.
[/QUOTE]

[stoner]Legolamb’s not here, man.[/stoner]

87

[QUOTE=carnivorousplant]
[stoner]Legolamb’s not here, man.[/stoner]
[/QUOTE]

No, I’m Legolamb.

88

[QUOTE=Tahssa]
No, I’m Legolamb.
[/QUOTE]

I said, Legolamb’s not here, man!

anymore brownies, man?

89

Not a problem, but a clarification: How much do various characters know/suspect of Gandalf’s true nature in LotR? It’s clear that the hobbits know jack, and many men think he is a powerful “wizard” (but still, basically, a man). Do the elves (and Aragorn) know that he is a Maia, or just suspect it, or did they not even look at things as rigidly as we, the readers do? (i.e., wizards are wizards, a category unto themselves, and we don’t have to shoe-horn them into a category like men, elves, maiar, etc.). Did Sauron even know Gandalf was in-country, or what his name/identity was? Did Sauron even know the major players arrayed against him at all (Aragorn, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, Treebeard, Thranduil, etc.)? Or were they all just irritating insects, not worthy of his attention?

90

Thank you, QtM for (I assume) summarizing The Simarillon for me. Now I don’t have to read it (believe me, I have tried–my eyes glaze over about page 4).
My question is this: even with Arwen and Ewoyn, where are the women in this world? Never mind Galadriel or the other elves etc–I’m talking about human women. How did they ever have generations?

One thing that has always bugged me re Tolkien was the chastitiy of the whole thing. God knows I dont’ need elvish porn, but he took chivalry to the nth degree.

91

Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel knew that they were emissaries from over the sea. Given the timing of their arrival (as Sauron put forth his power in what would become Mirkwood) they likely understood that they were … spirits of great power. In History of Middle Earth (HOME) it appears that Glorfindel returned to Middle Earth with the Istari (wizards). If so then he most definitely knew their nature and would’ve shared it with Elrond, Galadriel and Cirdan.

Did Aragon know? Unlikely. Did Sauron know…most likely but he saw them as crippled in their power and mandate and took some, but not much, notice of them. The Mouth of Sauron recognized Gandalf at the Black Gate.

92

[QUOTE=toadspittle]
Not a problem, but a clarification: How much do various characters know/suspect of Gandalf’s true nature in LotR? It’s clear that the hobbits know jack, and many men think he is a powerful “wizard” (but still, basically, a man). Do the elves (and Aragorn) know that he is a Maia, or just suspect it, or did they not even look at things as rigidly as we, the readers do?
[/QUOTE]

It seems the elves don’t know since Lothlorien is filled with mourning songs for the Grey Pilgrim.

Treebeard and the Ents do seem to know. Treebeard jokingly refers to him as “Young master Gandalf”, as the Ents were created and placed in the world a day or two before the Maiar entered it.

93

Re Sauron’s view of the Istari

IMO he never saw them as a threat. He knew the conditions they were bound by, that they could aid in the battle but not fight it for the races of Middle Earth. So Sauron never had to worry about fighting them directly. If he could manipulate the races properly, and he was certainly confident in this, than he never needed to worry about the Istari. Once Saruman was corrupted, Sauron saw him as somebody else he could lie too, control and destroy. Saruman never concerned himself with Radghast the brown, so it seems likely Sauron didn’t either.

94

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Thank you, QtM for (I assume) summarizing The Simarillon for me. Now I don’t have to read it (believe me, I have tried–my eyes glaze over about page 4).
My question is this: even with Arwen and Ewoyn, where are the women in this world? Never mind Galadriel or the other elves etc–I’m talking about human women. How did they ever have generations?

One thing that has always bugged me re Tolkien was the chastitiy of the whole thing. God knows I dont’ need elvish porn, but he took chivalry to the nth degree.
[/QUOTE]

If you ever try to read the Silmarillion, just skip ahead to Chapter one and bypass the Ainulindale and Valaquenta. The rest of the books is a series of epic myths. Some of the stories are incredible and of course they all weave together into a greater story.

The Woman of Middle-Earth: Rosie Cotton & Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in the Shire

Lobelia even turned out to a redeeming figure. Showing more backbone to Sharky than most Hobbits.

Minas Tirith was evacuated of women & children but we still got to meet those few ladies that stayed to help run the house of healing. Their leader was Ioreth, a competent nurse or what passed for a nurse in that time and place.

Most of the book dealt with war, and woman were not part of it. Eowyn the shining exception. In the Silmarillion, you will run into many more woman of all types, Elven and human.

Jim

95

[QUOTE=toadspittle]
Not a problem, but a clarification: How much do various characters know/suspect of Gandalf’s true nature in LotR? It’s clear that the hobbits know jack, and many men think he is a powerful “wizard” (but still, basically, a man). Do the elves (and Aragorn) know that he is a Maia, or just suspect it, or did they not even look at things as rigidly as we, the readers do? (i.e., wizards are wizards, a category unto themselves, and we don’t have to shoe-horn them into a category like men, elves, maiar, etc.). Did Sauron even know Gandalf was in-country, or what his name/identity was? Did Sauron even know the major players arrayed against him at all (Aragorn, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, Treebeard, Thranduil, etc.)? Or were they all just irritating insects, not worthy of his attention?
[/QUOTE]

Faramir and Strider both have a good idea. Faramir even refers to him as Olorín.

Elrond, Galadriel and Cirdan of course have a very good idea. Galadriel probably knew of him in his other form. She always pushed Gandalf first in the council, ahead of Saruman if I recall correctly.

Glorfindel, probably knew as he very possibly came back on the same boat as Gandalf.

Sauron did not know much about Gandalf until near the end. Gandalf was always very careful not to reveal himself. However, Sauron must of learned much from Saruman that Saruman never meant to let slip. If this were true, then he would have been suspicious of Gandalf and his movements.

I do not have a good feel for what Treebeard guessed or knew, I suspect he did not realize that Gandalf and Sauraman were Maia.

Sauron knew who Thranduil was and had made war on him more than once, same for Galadriel. Elrond was probably a bit more of a mystery, hidden away in his valley, like a very pale shadow of Gondolin.

Sauron did not know of or suspect Aragorn until Aragorn revealed himself by wrench control of the Palantir away from Sauron. This still did not confirm what manner of powerful Chieftain Aragorn was, but he must of worried that he was a might Dunedain and had access to the Ring.

Jim

96

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
To some degree, yes, Aragorn was described in detail of being tutored by the likes of Elrond himself and then he did spend 50 very hard years in the constant danger.
[/QUOTE]
Well, this is like one workout session at the gym for an Elf, but I’m starting to see what you mean.

I think if I look at the mortals whom Elves chose to befriend the same way one looks at heroes in any epic story, i.e., you are supposed to just accept that they have the strength and skill of twenty of their brethren, I can start to get it. This, coupled with the stoner Elves … it works, I guess. Thanks everyone.

97

[QUOTE=Fiveyearlurker]
And Sauron doesn’t have a spaceship.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know, Sauron might actually have a need for a spaceship.

98

[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir]
Unless that Elf gave up immortality and, in essence, decided that life was not worth living after that “torrid fling.” Just ask Luthien and Arwen. I wouldn’t denigrate the emotional commitment made by female Elves who truly, madly, deeply loved Men (odd that we never hear about an Elven male who falls as hard for a human female).
[/QUOTE]

There is one human female/elven male couple in Tolkien’s works but it’s buried in the History of Middle Earth series. They were Andreth of the House of Beor (same house as Beren) and Aegnor, the brother of Finrod and Galadriel, and whose death is briefly mentioned in the Silmarillion. He was too much of a wimp to marry her, though, and she died alone, although she became one of the wise of her people.

Hey, wasn’t there a very obscure bit of Tolkien’s notes that had the moon as Morgoth’s base? I have only paged through some of the History of Middle Earth series at the library so maybe I made this up.

99

[QUOTE=sqweels]
The Ring made you Instant Hitler. You enjoyed unrivaled political power and the armies under your command were near-invincible.

… Boromir didn’t try to take the Ring from Frodo because he wanted to become invisible, but because he felt it would have made him a great general, with a (doomed) chance of defeating Sauron’s armies. (BTW, Rings of Power only make men and hobbits invisible.)
[/QUOTE]

So suppose Aragorn at some point had taken the Ring and claimed it for his own.

Is there any remote conceivable way a mortal, even one as powerful and charismatic as Aragorn, wielding the Ring could have overthrown Sauron, or were all such such thoughts only delusions caused by the Ring itself to attempt to get back to its master?

100

[QUOTE=Kythereia]
For all we know, Bilbo’s clock could’ve come from some quaint little clockmaker’s shop in Hobbiton
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but clocks can’t be created in a vacuum: they require a good degree of relatively advanced metallurgical technology, including the ability to cut gears and make reliable springs {I’m assuming it was a spring driven clock rather than a pendulum mechanism, since it sat on the mantelpiece}, which wasn’t attained until the early 15th Century - and even clocks then were expensive, unreliable and rare. The Dwarves could probably have crafted a fairly cunning clock if they’d put their minds to it, but apart from making nifty swords and jewellery, there’s no indication that they had a technical bent remarkable any later than say AD 900.

Bilbo’s clock, in contrast, seems to be a relatively unremarkable possession for an independently wealthy country gentleman, and thus seems to belong to around the 18th Century. In the light of the apparent lack of any comparable technology, it is, as Merlin put in in The Sword In The Stone, “A beastly anachronism. That is what it is, a beastly anachronism.”