Pascal's Wager

There’re only two probably objections that anyone takes very seriously.

  1. The Empty Set Probability — This is an epistemological argument. God cannot be known, and therefore no assignments of probability can possibly be made. This means, bottom line, that you cannot establish a superdominance, and you therefore cannot know how you should wager. You face a dilemma Morris calls “epistemic nullity”. If true, this argument implies a futility in the Wager.

  2. The Zero Probability — This is the argument most natural to strong atheists. They might argue rationally that God cannot exist, perhaps because of certain contradictions and paradoxes, or esle because of a dearth of any empirical evidence. The fifty-fifty chance given to God’s existence ought to be a zero chance. Naturally, this argument, if true, reduces the Wager to an equal outcome matrix, and some say, a negative outcome for believing since it wastes time and effort.

Pascal’s third premise was that you must make the most useful decision, assuming you are rational. But even this has been argued against in manifold ways. A man who is a masochist might enjoy nothing more than an eternity of misery. Thus, a masochist would choose deliberately not to believe and would win the Wager by coming in the back door of it.

And there is the existential argument. Maybe you can’t make the most useful decision because you don’t really know what would be most useful. How do you know you don’t have the notions of bliss and misery all mixed up? Perhaps what your body experiences as misery, your eternal soul might experience as bliss, and vice versa.

Finally, there is the problem of variance. In other words, the heavenly reward might not be all it’s cracked up to be. Better than punishment, to be sure, but maybe only a little better. Maybe it’s no more significant than the difference between getting a million dollars and getting a million dollars and fifty cents. If believing is a chore, then it might not be worth the effort.

A couple of arguments remain that are fairly general in nature, and not directed at any particular portion of the Wager. (For those who might not know, Pascal’s Wager is actually not a single premise, but at least three, put together in a sort of haphazard disarray on scratch paper. Collectively, they are called the Pensees.)

The Immoral Wager Argument — Gambling on God’s existence might be a blasphemous act in and of itself, tantamount to turning God into a parlor game.

The Lottery Argument — If you play, you might win a lottery and you might not. Thought there are these, and only these two possibilities, you would certainly not say that your odds of winning are fifty-fifty, because you know your real chances are more like one in fifty million.

The Procrastination Argument — If all that is required is belief, then you will be rewarded equally whether you drop everything and believe now or whether you postpone believing until some later date, like say, your deathbed. Of course, then you risk dying suddenly, so this argument, because of its external risk assignment, is usually acknowledged as a red herring.

I think a lot of people here on this message board have been mislead to believe that, because there are so many arguments against the Wager, and because they seem, on the surface at least, to be formidable, the Wager has been officially and summarily debunked. But this is far from the case.

The fact is that Rescher, Mackie, and many others do conclude, when all is said and done, that the Wager is valid as proposed by Pascal. And let’s keep in mind here that we are talking about Blaise Pascal, the father of statistics and so much more. This was not some goofy thinker like Descartes, offering something silly like, “I think; therefore, I am.” This was one of the greatest thinkers who ever lived, working out a decision matrix.

Okay, next (maybe tomorrow) the objections to the objections.

As presented by Pascal, the term ‘wager’ seems intentionally ironic. His main point was that however small the probability of God’s existence, it makes rational sense to believe because, at worst, “if you lose, you lose nothing.” Thus it’s not really a wager at all.

When the fundamental premise (that belief in a non-existant God costs you nothing) fails, the whole ‘wager’ loses the power Pascal intended.

Yes, Pascal had a brilliant mind. But not only can brilliant minds err, they tend to err in really spectacular ways.


He’s the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armor, shouting ‘All Gods are Bastards!’

Inertia, I am not sure where you live, but there are not huge multi-million dollar churches all around here and there are a whole lot of churches let me tell you. But if the church is large, it is to support the number of members who come to the church. You must have a large enough building to enable a worship service to be held. But of course no charity organization has a big building to do its thing either. I hate it when charities spend the money given to them to build buildings to give children a place to play, or homeless shelters, or buildings to manage all the things they do.

I know there are churches that missue the money, but it is up to its members to see that finances are handled properly.

On the idea about getting into heaven or is saying you believe enough. God knows your heart. He knows if what you say is true or if you are lying to others or even yourself. Why would you want to go to heaven with a God you do not even know?

As to wasting your opportunity at life to do the will of God vs. your own. God wants what is the absolute best for you. If you could make perfect decisions in your life that would be exactly the same as following the will of God. So, if you follow in his will your life will be your own, but it will also be the best it possibly can be. I chose a career that was right for me and a company that was right for me. I chose a wife that was right for me. I also believe that each of these things were completely in God’s will. He wanted and still wants the best for me in every aspect of my life. By following his will, I get there and I have the best life has to offer me.

Jeffery

Just a point. These are the requirements stated by the church - not the requirements stated by God. Careful not to confuse the two.

Also:

If you believe in God, that is all that is required. No words need be uttered. Words are for men. If God exist, he knows your soul.

I think I understand now. Pascal’s Wager is valid as long as other “gods” are not added to the equation.
Using this logic, 2+2=5, as long as 4 is not added to the equation. :slight_smile:
In other words, a false choice does not a valid Wager make.

The problem with Pascal’s Wager is his assumption that believing in God costs nothing. Obviously, you must change your behavior based on whether or not you believe in God or the whole argument is pointless. Any action that pleases God and yourself doesn’t enter into this discussion. So let’s say you have a choice of playing golf on Sunday mornings or going to church. You would prefer to play golf but you suspect that God would rather you went to church. So you decide that rationally you should sacrifice the lifetime of golf in order to go to church so that God will give you a reward much bigger than a lifetime of golf in the afterlife.

The first flaw with this reasoning is that by the definition of Pascal’s Wager you have no proof that there will be any reward of any size in the afterlife. Or for that matter any afterlife at all. If this life on Earth is all there is, you will have sacrificed your only chance at enjoyment for nothing.

The second flaw with this reasoning is one that Pascal ignored but other posters here have picked up on. There’s no reason to suppose that God, even if he exists, prefers church over golf. He may be indifferent, in which case you sacrificed your enjoyment for nothing. Or worse yet, he might prefer golf, in which case your sacrifice would diminish whatever possible rewards you could gain in the afterlife.

I’m glad Lib weighed in on this. His dissertations are ‘mind expanding’. The thought occurred to me there is a possibility we may not make the decision to believe (or not believe) in a vacuum. That the decision may not entirely be our own. As has been noted, the decision only seem relevent if we’re talking about the Christian god-the one who will condemn us to hell for eternity. Christianity provides for a messenger-in the form of the Holy Spirit-whose purpose is to help us turn our will toward God.

Without getting into a lot of dogmatic scripture citing (which requires a good deal of precedent belief to even contemplate), I simply want to introduce the possibility that there could be other forces at work of which we may not be aware.

Calif, does this mean that the Easter Bunny does exist? Perhaps you mean the Tooth Fairy? Harvey? Santa Claus?
Or are you trying to say that yet another unproven entity (The Holy Ghost) can be used to help prove the existance of your god?

slythe wrote:

Actually, the wager just becomes more of a gamble as more gods are added. So the argument still stands, if you accept the premise that the bet costs nothing.

Look at it this way. If there was a lottery, and a ticket cost exactly $0, only a fool would not buy a ticket. This is regardless of whether the chances of winning is 1 in a million, or 1 in 2. The simple premise is: you have nothing to lose.


There’s always another beer.

As an aside, I’d like to add this to the lottery analogy.

Certain numbers are said to be “hot” numbers in the lottery. These are numbers that people perceive to come up often. There is absolutely no valid mathematical grounds for this, but people believe what they want to believe.

So pick a god, any god. But it looks like the Judeo-Christian God is a “hot” number. If you’re gonna gamble, place your bets on Him.


There’s always another beer.

Beeruser, the analogy does not cost “nothing”. You are talking about compromising your mindset to accept something without proof, changing your behavior to suit what is written down in a holy book, telling others about this belief without being able to provide any proof and thus compromising your standing with them, giving up time for church, fellowship, prayer, and numerous other activities, etc.
The way I think about how the world works is not “nothing”, and cannot be dismissed with a mere Wager that has nothing to offer but an unproven and ill-defined payoff.

Little Nemo wrote:

That’s not obvious to me. God didn’t say, “Whosoever believeith in me and behaves in the prescriptive way that I want them to, shall have everlasting life”.

Technically, it would be Saturdays that God might have a problem with… [wink]

Why would he prefer that you go to church? He might not even like the church you chose. It’s the other church goers who would be EXPECTING you to go to church.

Exactly. That’s why going to church isn’t a part of Pascal’s Wager. You and others have added it by way of association.

God’s promise is based only on belief in him. There are certainly Christians that have issues with the church and all it’s trappings and therefore do not attend regularly. That does not diminish their belief. There are some believers, who go to church to share and bond with others in a common belief. Sometimes this activity strengthens their belief. Unfortunately, there are many who go to church out of a sense of fear and obligation. I suspect that God would prefer that you not go to church at all if you have negative feelings about it.

slythe wrote:

Right. What is wagered is only one’s soul. Assume, for the moment, that you do not need to change your behavior, only to believe. The scenario that you have an issue with is the one where YOU BELIEVE and GOD DOES NOT EXIST. Unless you believe in a Godless afterlife, you will never know that you’ve been duped, therefore you have lost nothing.

However, I sense that you are in the “DO NOT BELIEVE” camp. If GOD DOES NOT EXIST, again you’ve lost nothing. But if GOD DOES EXIST you’ve lost everthing.

Here’s the payoff matrix, as I see it:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial”>code:</font><HR><pre>
BELIEVE GOD EXIST COST PAYOFF
Yes Yes Nothing Mother lode
Yes No Nothing Nil
No No Nothing Nil
No Yes Everything Nil


Well, so much for the ‘code’ UBB code, but I guess it’s decipherable… I want my HTML back!

JoeyBlades:
Implicit in every statement you just made is that your understanding of God is correct while the understandings of those who disagree are incorrect.

For those of us without a pre-existing belief, that assuption seems no more certain than the doctrines of Dianetics.


The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

As a teenager, long before I had ever heard of Pascal’s Wager, I had come up with this logic on my own, and it pushed me to become more involved in the religion of my parents. (Only a few years ago did I hear the logic as identified with Pascal.) All these years I thought the logic to be pretty iron-clad, and today, here on SD, I have found some interesting arguments against it. Thanks, all.

I do agree that there is something of a fallacy in the idea that “If God does not exist then nothing is lost”, for indeed, there are a good number of pleasures one gives up when accepting the lifestyle of a believer (unless one chooses that path of belief only without any actions whatsoever, even increased prayer or charity).

This is indeed an argument which occurred to me even as a teenager, but I have always considered it to be negligible. As JoeyBlades points out just above in his Payoff Matrix, the stakes of this wager are extremely high. When the payoff is eternal bliss, and the risk is eternal punishment, a few rituals – or even many rituals – tends to look pretty insignificant. At least it does to me.

The argument of “Which God?”, however, is much more daunting. Fortunately for me, my religion (Judaism) does not beleive in an all-or-nothing payoff, but that everything is on a sliding scale in accordance with the totality of the person. Thus, there is something to be gained for the person who happens to choose the wrong religion, so long as he makes a sincere effort to try and find the correct one.

I might also point out that it is not possible for me to “believe in God” without having that belief affect other parts of my life. Do you truly feel that your life is absolutely unchanged by your faith?


The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

I should hope that my belief in God has indeed changed my life.

I began my belief at the age of 8, so I cannot say it changed me greatly at that point, but I can say that I would likely be a much different person without it.

I have never said that PW was entirely valid. I did say that for a Christian believer, it can seem that it is indeed valid. That is, I as a Christian do not believe I have given up much in my belief in God, but that I will indeed gain a whole bunch in the afterlife (i.e. Heaven). So, why would not all non-believers see it the same way? But, I can also see why an atheist would not see it the same way. The way I perceive that an atheist might view this is as follows:

  1. There is no proof of God, so no proof that anyone will get a payoff.

  2. Based on what various Christian denominations do and say, I must give up things I enjoy doing to achieve this possible payoff.

  3. If there is an afterlife, what I gave up might indeed be worth it, as long as it is as good as they say and non-belief is as bad as they say. (i.e. if the afterlife is mostly the same whether you believe or not, then payoff is not enough).

  4. If there is no God, then what I gave up on Earth can never be reclaimed and I have paid out a lot and gotten zilch in return.

  5. I can get most of the benefits of religion through other methods. (i.e. I can give to a charity, I can help the needy, I can meet with a group of people of like interest and do things revolving around that interest.)

Maybe some other points as well, but in the final analysis, the wager as presented does not add up.

Slythe, I am not saying that an atheist should leave any possibilities out of their decsion matrix. But as a believer, might it be reasonable for me to not believe that anything that is contradictory to my belief is not a valid choice? So, for me the wager works. I have given up little and I gain a lot if God is who I believe he is and have lost little if he is not. For you, the wager may not add up. That is all I am trying to convey.

Singledad asked about people’s feelings on the wager and I have answered them to the best of my abilities.

Jeffery

Spiritus,

You wrote:

I’m not sure why you would say that. I only point out that the core of the promise is, if you believe, then you will be saved. All of the rest that has been attributed to God should really be attributed to the church.

I’m not defending Pascal’s Wager, BTW. I think it is fundamentally flawed in another way. The “Wager” reduces the relationship between you and God to mere obligation, as if God were only interested in whether or not you “pass the test”. I think any faith that is based on obligation and test is no faith at all.

I agree 100%. My life IS changed by my faith, but it’s a genuine and desirable change. I make the determination about what is and isn’t appropriate in the application of my faith – not the church and not other Christians. This is one reason why, for me, there is never a clash between reason and faith.

I say it because it is true. The assumption is so implicit in your reasoning that you cannot even recognize it when it is pointed out. You point out **what you believe[/] the core of the promise is. Your opinion on this matter is not universal. It is not even universal among Christians. It is not even universal among Christian sects derived from Protestantism.

I am glad to hear that. Truly. But it does weaken the proposition that “you do not need to change your behavior, only to believe.” As you so correctly point out, faith will change the way one views other issues and it will change the way one lives one’s life. Thus, the choice of faith (if it even makes sense to speak of choosing what to believe) is not “free”.


The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*