Passover ethics question

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’ve posted here before several times about the propriety of using kosher for Passover noodles for the sedar and the consensus seems to be that it is ethical and allowed but some agree with me that I am justified in considering it potentially inappropriate.

Today, however, let’s hypothesize that although I vowed not to get into the same argument this year, I noticed that my mother wasn’t even bothering to use the kosher for Passover noodles. Let’s further suppose that when I mentioned it to her she basically had excuses about buying the wrong noodles then began to criticize me for caring when I don’t keep kosher anyway. Let’s also suppose that other family members also told me to stop bringing it up because “nobody else cares”.

My question-is it wrong for me to keep silent about this for the sake of family harmony? There will be 5 or 6 jewish guests who are not relatives at the sedar. I don’t plan on saying anything because I don’t want the drama but I feel kind of bad about it. What if in this hypothetical situation which absolutely is not happening today, somebody asks and my mother tells them that the noodles are kosher for Passover? Do I have an obligation to come clean? Am I wrong to feel upset even though I never planned to eat the kugel? Does honoring your parents including letting them lie to guest? What about lies of omission? Am I blowing this whole thing out of proportion?

For background, I do not keep kosher but I refrain from eating Chametz during Passover but the rest of my family does not.

2

Passover is fucking stupid. It is a relentlessly tedious night of arbitrary rituals consisting of idiotic metaphors involving food that should be eaten (because it is food) but instead is made the subject of asinine pontificating. For fucking hours.

Once you realize this, you will be happier.

If your mom wants to celebrate this fucking stupid dumbass ritual her way, then let her.

If you want to do it your way, then hold your own damn seder.

I’m gonna indulge my traditional Passover of feasting upon a ritual bacon cheeseburger.

3

I think your only obligation is to try to convince your mother not to mislead her guests. No harm will come to them from eating those noodles, it’s not magic, they wouldn’t be deliberately violating their own beliefs.

4

I come down hard on the side of being honest. It’s one thing to have a questionable item served to people who honestly don’t care. And you can choose not to eat that particular thing.

But other guests? I personally would make sure they were aware of what they were doing. It’s better if your mother made the statement, so it doesn’t come off as you versus her.
Then again, it’s much easier to take a moral stance on the high ground when you aren’t actually involved in the situation.

5

Yet for many of us secular American Jews it is our favorite holiday. Many who do nothing else explicitly Jewish still look forward to the traditions of Pesach. Probably because it doesn’t involve going to services, is heavy on socializing, wine, and food.

And the op is not alone in picking and choosing what to observe. I (mostly) observe Pesach and fast for Yom Kippur while otherwise following little, rarely going to services, and possessing a god-concept that can best be described as a belief in a god of sorts but one that does not give a shit, is not even capable of doing so.

Point is we are each entitled to decide how we want to observe if at all. And our reasons for doing so do not have to make sense to anyone else.

I respect your disdain for observance. Maybe you can repect the decision to observe as well?

It would be very unethical to serve chametz to guests who want to observe the holiday without at least warning them first. If you are going to a Seder that you know will be that then it is up to you to decide what to eat there and what to pass on. Every year my brother’s MIL hosts a Seder, on whatever day is a Friday or Saturday, and always served is beer and noodle kugel. I know that going there and deal; there are enough other foods.

But misleading, even not warning ahead of time, is still wrong even you cannot see any harm coming to them. Think of it as someone serving dog or cat meat to you (or more extreme, human meat) and not telling you because no harm would come to you from eating it and they don’t care.

6

Ok, I’m gonna go with the ‘do no harm’ route.

Is there any* reasonable possibility* that your kosher-keeping guests could find out at a later time that your mom served them non-kosher items?

If no, then keep your trap shut, and try to survive the night without familial homicide.

If yes, then tell your mom point-blank that if she does not begin the meal by informing the guests of the irregularities, you will. Then at dinner, give her the side-eye to warn her you’re serious, then if she is not forthcoming, say something like ‘Mom’s been really busy, and she forgot to mention this, but the noodles tonight are not kosher for passover, or actually kosher at all. Just wanted to let you know, so you can make your own decisions.’ No drama, no emotional blowout, just quick and factual.

7

The OP is not serving dinner, her mother is, nor is she misleading anyone, her mother is (or hypothetically is, that’s not clear). The OP’s mother is being dishonest and disrespectful to her guests and I still think the OP’s obligation is to deal with this with her mother, not the guests.

8

If they ask and your mother is too cowardly to tell the truth, then it would be the right thing to speak up, IMHO. I don’t know how you could do this without embarrassing your mother, but then again she shouldn’t be lying in the first place.

But if they don’t ask, I wouldn’t say anything.

9

These are the pitfalls of selective religious practise. An observant Jew might disapprove of the OP disrespecting her mother and would consider that worse than unknowing consumption of forbidden food.

10

This summing up is from a fact-checked no-ax-to-grind source:

I agree with what you wrote. However, to my palate, the Kosher for Passover noodles aren’t as good. Maybe I would just chalk up the better than expected taste to a really good cook :smiley:

11

This is one of the many reasons we shouldn’t be eating noodles at seder at all. It is only because of an existing ethical violation that this question even arose.

You can go through a bunch of contortions to create a noodle that is, according to the letter of the law, kosher for Passover, but such a thing completely violates the spirit of the thing. This aspect of the Passover observance is supposed to be doing without, not with finding devious ways to justify eating what you want.

Rules-lawyering to avoid complying with voluntary religious restrictions is baloney. If you want to eat noodle kugel and cake on Passover, knock yourself out. Just don’t pat yourself on the back about how observant you’re being while consuming foods that are only allowable on a technicality.

That said, regarding the OP - she brings up two separate, but related issues, not volunteering the information and flat-out lying when asked about it.

A: Regarding not volunteering the information that the noodles are not kosher for Passover: It would be wrong to let the guests eat it without telling them. You’re serving one thing knowing full well that your guests would think it was something else. That’s deceptive. It’s not okay. I can understand the notion that not saying anything might be the lesser of two evils, considering that no actual harm will come to the guests from unknowingly eating chametz, but see point B.

B: Regarding responding when asked about what sort of noodles were used: DON’T LIE TO PEOPLE ABOUT WHAT’S IN THEIR FOOD! EVER!

Is it possible that a guest is allergic to something that is in regular noodles, but can eat the kosher-for-Passover franken-noodles? Sure. Lots of unusual allergies and sensitivities out there, right? They might not be asking for any religious reason, but because the one type of noodle will cause a bad reaction. The OP’s mom might think it “doesn’t matter,” but maybe it really does, but not for a reason that she’s thought of. There are any number of reasons why someone might want or need an accurate answer about what’s in a dish, most of which we probably never would have considered. We have no way of judging how important that information really is to the asker, which is why we must simply tell the truth.

(Please note that I do not personally refrain from eating chametz during Passover.)

12

Now personally I am with you here and intentionally choose to avoid the technically legal food but functionally chametz, and conversely follow Sephardic traditions regrading beans, rice, etc. as they seem more consistent with the spirit of the rule. But I wouldn’t judge the practices of others so harshly. To some it is all about letter of The Law as ruled upon by past experts. I get that even if that is not what I choose to do

13

Maybe next time, make your own noodles? Telling your mother how to cook something is a losing game.

14

Do not threadshit. You want to rant in this manner, open another thread.

15

The issue here has nothing at all to do with telling the Mom how to cook.

It’s about the Mom hosting a nominally religious celebration but potentially doing it in a way that makes it difficult for those who intend on observing the rules of the holiday to do so, in a way that may make them break those rules, which they intend to follow, without realizing it.

The Mom is hosting a Seder but simultaneously mocking the desire of her child and potentially other guests to observe the holiday in the fashion they want with its usual traditions.

The Mom is wrong to do so. That is straightforward.

The question is what should our op do? What are the op’s ethical obligations? If the Mom refuses to do the right thing and let the guests know that the noodles are real noodles not the faux ones that are officially considered okay to eat during the holiday, should our op snitch?

16

Eating chametz on Passover is one of the worst possible things you can do in Judaism - right up there with sacrificing your child to Moloch.

The whole argument between you and Mom about eating chametz on Passover even though you don’t keep kosher during the rest of the year is ‘meh’ to be, but serving chametz to guests who have every reason to believe that they are not being served chametz is, in my book, pretty egregious. It doesn’t matter whether the guests may or may not ask or find out in the future.

17

It sounds to me like you are potentially worrying over nothing unless your mom has shown a penchant for lying when it suits her. Presumably your mother knows the non-relative guests better than you do–and vice versa–and would know whether they give a hoot over what is kosher and what’s not. If the guests actually care about such things, I would think they would inquire about it beforehand and not make assumptions. If you’ve been told that “nobody else cares”, I would extend this to non-relatives who are apparently close enough to family to be invited to this gathering.

If the subject comes up at the table and your mom lies, I would not say anything. Why? Because the price of being honest in that situation would outweigh its benefits. Not only would awkwardness ensue–which would put a damper on the festivities–but it could threaten your relationship with your mom and other family members. And all over a ritualistic practice that is of little actual consequence beyond tradition and religious observance. If we were talking about someone’s health and financial well-being, of course my opinion would be different.

This isn’t to say I think lying about kosher is cool. I just think countering her lie with the truth would result in a net loss in the final analysis.

18

I guess the OP could bring a Kosher for Passover noodle dish (we’re talking a kugel, right?) to the seder for attendees who wish to keep KFP. It would blow mom’s secret, but there you go.

True Confession: once I made charoses using wine that was NOT Maneshewitz or Mogen David!

19

As you know, we Jews didn’t have time to wait for the bread to leaven while hustling our collective butts out of Egypt…but we certainly had time to whip the cream cheese, otherwise the matzoh tends to break when you spread it on.

That being said, I guess you have to draw the line somewhere. Whatever gets you through the night(s)…

20

Green Bean:

I don’t understand this attitude. Passover is not about “doing without,” it’s about commemorating our freedom from slavery and from Egypt, and about feeling gratitude to G-d for bringing that about. This isn’t Yom Kippur or Tisha B’Av. We drink wine and eat rich meats and savory vegetables and all sorts of yummy things. In temple times, roast lamb was not only a Passover treat, it was a Passover obligation. It’s a HOLIDAY, and we’re supposed to celebrate with whatever foods will make us happy about the event we’re celebrating, as long as we stick to the commemorative aspects - i.e., no leavened grain. I see no ethical problems with non-grain substitutes for cakes, noodles, or what have you on Passover.

If your mother has placed people who would not eat Chametz in the position of consuming Chametz, they should be warned. People who would eat Chametz anyway, I’d say don’t bother saying anything to, what’s the point? She shouldn’t be trying to pull a fast one on anyone, but I don’t think it counts as such if those people would have willingly eaten the Chametz noodles anyway. “Family harmony” isn’t a reason to let people be fooled into violating their personal sense of observance, but it doesn’t sound like it does so, except for you, and you’re aware.