Past Life Regression

Leroy, thank you for sharing your beliefs, and please don’t hold back because you think some of us are “out to get you”. What I and most other participants here are concerned about is not tearing down a belief which makes you happy or brings you peace and hope, but examining in minute detail the claims that these phenomena are really real, since strong, repeatable and independently verifiable evidence in support of past lives would be worthy of a Nobel Prize and the Randi Foundation’s $1M, not to mention the most significant discovery in the history of mankind.

The problem with your disclosures so far is that, even you must agree, they need not be supernatural or psychic in origin. I could pretend to be a guide, make up a few stories, perhaps even spend a day in the library building up a life with names, dates and minute details which, lo and behold, the curious or determined clients would uncover and cite as proof positive. I might even convince myself that I was being psychic. However, if I could not even hold a conversation in the language of the time/place which I was supposed to be able to speak, the chances of me really experiencing that place and time would be slim, do you not agree?

I’ve decided not to post in this thread due to their being no point in it. Dvid B is being a jerk, lekatt is less than convincing, and the whole thing is circular. However, I will note these few thingies:

Does not mean anything. People called themselves their equivelant of “German”. They though of themselves as being Deutscher, even though therewas no state of Germany. Likewise, in the former Soviet Union, there lived Germans, who had never seen of lived in Germany. The term itself is not incorrect, nor incorrrect in context. There were quite a number of princecsses, since there were several “royal” families in germany.

OK, OK, cite? That is a very big supposition, particularly since cave-paintings were not very specific or organized. Also, the history channel often just plain sucks. They marginilize that which is important but boring, and they have been less-than-honest at times.

Thank you for your post and I understand your position, but also consider the possible position that it is not made up and is as it appears to be. No one can proof anything in these areas and it is probably not wise to try.

I believe what I do because I have experienced it, and a lot more than I say here, enough to write a large book. After my NDE all kinds of things began to happen that I didn’t understand. I was skeptical at this point and tried to see if the explanations could be normal. I measured things, wrote journals of happenings, etc.
But in my final analysis these things could not be explained.

I am no longer a skeptic or a believer, I find that many things can just be filed for future reference in determining the nature of this world. I have only one test that I apply to all things – is it loving, compassionate and honest. If it is I will accept it.

Thank you very much for your sincere and honest questions and if you have more I will try to answer them.

Love
Leroy

I don’t remember posting anything about Germany, must be someone else’s post. Deutsch is the german language word for German. Ich bin ein Deutscher.

About the history channel, I can’t tell you what sucks and what doesn’t, I only relate what I saw. I did also here this on the Art Bell show, but that probably sucks also. I suggest you start searching on the net if you are really interested. It doesn’t mean that much to me. But thanks for your civil post.

Love
Leroy

A couple points that I’m curious to get some clarification:

Does that mean that the knowledge and love you’ve learned is not important, or just the ways that this knowledge is learned is not important?

The way you learn is not important. The same lessons can be learned whether you are rich or poor, intelligent or not so intelligent. Those things don’t matter much. What you are learning is the things that Jesus taught. And, of course, there were other master teachers.

What most miss, is that the teachings help you more than you realize, they are for your growth.

Even in great evils can we learn, but this is not preferred.

Love
Leroy

Something I’ve wondered before about people who have memories of their past lives: how influenced are they by television and movies?

I know that the concept of reincarnation has been introduced in almost every culture and religion, and that there are strong indications of a belief in reincarnation among the writers of the Gospels*. Not as common, though, are specific claims of remembering past lives. (I know the poem Taliesin might be about reincarnation, and much later in the 19th century Emerson and Thoreau both claimed past life memories, but in general it’s more…well, general.)
However, with TV and movies, the claims to remember past lives seems to have exploded. By 2003, most people have seen pretty much every era of history recreated by Hollywood and other movie capitals, and not surprisingly the majority of recorded regressions seem to take place in the most filmed historical eras: Ancient Egypt, the American Civil War, Elizabethan England, Rome, etc.

Freud called the rise in UFO sitings that was simultaneous with the decline in religious visions “technological angels”. I wonder if past life memories may also be a merger of technology and the spiritual? If any of our great-grandparents a century ago that “in 50 years, Americans by the 10s of millions will stay in their living rooms on Wednesday** nights because they want to see what a redheaded housewife is going to pull to get her Cuban husband to let her into his NYC nightclub act”, but if they prefer they can go down the street and watch Moses part the Red Sea in technicolor, or “in 60 years, everybody in this country will be able to see and hear the presidential inauguration from their living room”, they’d have assumed the person talking to them was either crazy or drunk. After 100,000 years of evolving, suddenly moving light images were just “BAM!” sprung on us, and it’s amazing we’re not crazier than we are.
I wonder if with some people the “images” became so merged into their brains that they actually could “remember” the times and injected themselves into the images they already had. If that makes any sense at all.
And buy bonds.

*John 3:9
Matthew 17:10-12
Romans 9: 11-13

**Wednesday’s a guess; I don’t know what night I LOVE LUCY came on.

A little story about my grandmother, just as an aside. She was the one who told me the story, proudly.

Grandma was on a trip with my Uncle, once. At one point they stopped at a rest stop and Grandma became convinced that my Uncle’s car was going to break down before they reached his house. It was going to cause a bad accident and my Uncle was going to be hurt.

Now Grandma had had several revelatory experiences in her life and had come to the conclusion that these sudden certainties were ALWAYS TRUE and should NOT BE IGNORED, EVER.

So she was a little put off when my Uncle just brushed the idea off and said that they’d keep going and assume that they’d get there fine and deal with the breakdown if it happened, rather than immediately heading for a mechanic.

But she was sure that it was going to happen. She could feel it, like a big nasty lump in the future. And it was going to be bad, more than just an inconvenience. And she loved my Uncle, her son and didn’t want anything bad to happen to him.

So she thought, and she worried, and she argued with him. And then it came to her. She could fix it. All she had to do was lay hands on the car, just like they did for sick people at the church.

So she got herself into a prayerfull state of mind, and she gathered the goodness, and she performed a laying of hands on the car. And because of that, they got to his place safely, despite his unwarranted skepticism, which had endangered them both.

And she told the story to all of her grandchildren. The story was proof that: 1) Grandma is always right - if she gets a feeling that something bad is going to happen then it WILL happen, and 2) People have the power to heal if they will just believe that they do, and it even works on cars.

Yllaria

Did Grandma notice the conflict between the statements at all? It’s quite comical.

Hey, watch out! A comet’s gonna hit the Earth. Don’t worry, I prayed it away.

I loved that story, and very typical of what some grandma’s may do. The answer is who knows; I am a doubter on this one.

I do remember when I had a business typesetting, my main machine broke down in the middle of the day. I had called for the repair man and was waiting.

A local preacher came in looking for his church bulletin, I was supposed to have it done, but due to the breakdown didn’t.
When I told him, he laughed and remarked, “let’s go fix it”. He preceded to approach the machine lay his hands on it and yelled HEAL!! We both laughed, then I turned it on and it worked perfectly, I finished his bulletin and several other jobs. But the next day it brokedown again. Bad power supply. The story actually happened as I told it. You form your own conclusions.

I know that prayer works, but on machines? Research has been done a bunch on prayer and it has shown positive results.

http://ndeweb.com/Prayer04.htm

Very strange, this world.

Love
Leroy

With all due respect, Edlyn, I haven’t read anything here so far that I feel answers my questions.

However, it doesn’t appear that any real answers will be forthcoming, as this thread seems to have been thoroughly hijacked into some sort of religious/proof debate that I’m not following.

If anyone is actually interested in the OP, I suppose they can read the links I provided and learn something about human memory and hypnosis. I think I’ll stay out of the rest of it!

I think I understand what you are saying about past live memories. There are more from the areas shown in the movies due to the movies causing them to surface.

I don’t know, but it sounds logical. Not many adults remember any on their own, but children do, and it is a very interesting study.

The University of Virginia, personality studies, are looking into this and I hope they are able to get sufficient data. It will make good reading.

Love
Leroy

I read the links you provided, that I could access, and I agree with them. I don’t believe reliable past live memories can be found using hypnosis. And I have advised against trying this method.

Also, I would not try to use past live memories to show life continues after death, NDEs are much better evidence.

But I do believe we live many lives in all kinds of situations here in order to learn about ourselves and grow spiritually. Changing our situations – sex, country, race, economic status, etc., are powerful learning aids. We literally walk in the shoes of all mankind, what could be more enlightening?

Love
Leroy

Leroy, Edlyn & coosa, again I apologise if you detect an air of arrogance or dismissiveness on behalf of the skeptic posters here, but you surely wouldn’t expect a debate on these Boards going “assuming we have a soul, and further assuming reincarnation exists, how many past life regressions are real?” to proceed very far without someone questioning why any should be real.

Again, as Libertarian gently asked, if you simply believe that past lives are somehow accessible based solely on your own experience and without any independent evidence, then please say so now. If you are suggesting that the websites you point to contain independent and repeatable evidence that past life regression, or any other psychic phenomena, are really real, then please point out the specific pages or studies so that our discussion can proceed more productively. Those you have pointed out so far are merely about such phenomena, and do not explain why the anecdotes and personal accounts therein cannot be explained by the subject merely convincing themselves that some supernatural or psychic element was involved, in addition to the remarkable imaginative power of the human brain.

I myself have had experiences shared by no other skeptic atheist I know of:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=154914&perpage=50&pagenumber=2

Like Primaflora, Scylla & Sampiro I was not convinced that any supernatural or psychic element was involved (hence my user name!).

Incidentally, I cry a heartfelt “Amen” to Leroy’s testament to placing Love as the priority in one’s life, but I do not feel such is a particularly salient point here.

Stentor asked whether people who had attempted past life regression felt it was genuine. Nowhere in this thread has there been a convincing reason to believe that past life regression is anything more than suggestion and imagination. Again I ask: How would you explain the inability to hold a conversation in, or even remember a few words of, the language you were supposed to be experiencing?

SentientMeat, I fear you have misunderstood me, in which case I did not make myself clear, did I? I am an athiest myself, and my links were meant to provide evidence of how unreliable human memory is even in the short term, and that it has been well-documented that all sorts of ‘false memories’ have been created during hypnotic sessions. In other words, whatever ‘memories’ have been ‘discovered’ under hypnosis have nothing to do with proof of either reincarnation or any other kind of existence after death.

My intent to back out of the thread was based on the fact that it seemed to be turning into a general debate on the existence/nonexistence of God, which I would prefer to avoid as these debates rarely seem to accomplish anything. But lump me in with the skeptics, please!

I did read your post about your personal experience, and found it very interesting. Perhaps we share a very nearly identical viewpoint on this - I recently responded to some urging from relatives to attend their church by saying that if God were to descend before me on a fiery cloud, I would shake my head in wonder and say “Wow! What a hell of a hallucination!” :slight_smile:

lekatt, I’m sorry you couldn’t access very many of the links - perhaps it’s a difference in browsers, as the ones I checked worked for me. Or just general internet cussedness. :slight_smile: But we do seem to be in agreement on this one point - that hypnotic regression is no proof of an afterlife.

coosa, my most sincere apologies for misrepresenting you.

I think I confused you with someone else on this most confused of threads, wherein topics are strayed off, circles are reasoned, and a moderator appears anything but moderate!

Thank you for looking up the said thread. I would advise you to go along with your relatives, with as open a mind as possible. You may find a happiness and peace in a different place than I.

Coosa, you have my apologies also for my excursion into proper and improper epistemology in controverted questions such as this, which gave rise, from my examples, to the “does God exist” hijack you’re upset by.

It was my intention in my examples to say that (IMO) skeptics often treat emotional-investment issues, such as reincarnation and the presence/absence of a god, in a manner that precludes rational discussion of their validity – by presuming a conceptual universe that provides prima facie evidence of their absence.

To put it in a less emotionally charged context, there are those who would argue against the hypothetical existence of tachyons by the fiat statement that “nothing can go faster than light.” Since tachyons are by definition particles moving faster than light, they therefore are logically eliminated from any conceivable existence. (This assumption is fraudulent because the actual physical law, requiring a bit of Einsteinan physics and the use of limits theory to state fully, can be summarized as “no particle can be accelerated from a speed slower than light past light speed.” Since all known mass-bearing particles move slower than light and all massless particles are constrained to move at lightspeed, nothing observable can move faster than light. However, this theory says nothing about non-observable particles that might move faster than light. (There is a rather subtle demonstration that if tachyons existed, they would induce observable reactions other than what has in fact been observed; do a search for “tachyons,” in GQ IIRC, with time set to “any date,” if you’re interested.)

David B. answered my challenges to what I felt to be unwarranted epistemological assumptions quite thoroughly and from a skeptical standpoint. But the damage was done.

If I may explore the question of the validity of past-life memories at a bit more depth, it seems that Occam’s Razor makes improbable the majority of such reports, since confabulation, desire to please authority, erroneousness of memory, and such do indeed exist, and in the minds of skeptics do provide an adequate explanation of evidence suggestive of memory of past life experiences.

Note however that this speaks of probability, not of (dis)proof. And it is quite possible that immured in the mass of wish fulfillment fantasies, confabulated memories, and such, there are actual cases of recall of past lives. What the skeptics among us are saying is that this possibility strikes them as about as likely as the assertion that there are occasionally fairies dancing in Uncle Beer’s garden – the effort to locate any possible wheat from the chaff and produce valid evidence for such recall is the onus of those who allege it, not of the investigative skeptics.

That said, the one such claim I have personally came into contact with that impressed me as valid was that of a woman who believed herself to have been Nefertiti ( ::: notes groans from skeptical and unconvinced contingent; smiles ::: ) and who was able to draw me a floor plan of a palace in Akhenaten which had not yet been excavated and which was in fact excavated between five and ten years later – and matched her floor plan. Thirty years later, I am forced to accept her belief as having some supportive evidence, although the vicissitudes of life, including about a dozen moves, have long since done away with that floor plan sketch, which was in any event undated – meaning that the sole support for this anecdote is my own memory of the conversation and allegation that I did indeed in the past have such a floorplan sketch. (FWIW, her facial features did resemble to a significant degree the famous Polychrome Bust, though not the Amarna period wall paintings.)

As was noted above, the overwhelming majority of such claimed recalls are of having been someone whom an assumption of wish-fulfillment fantasy could explain as a romantic fantasy or a wish to be of historical significance. Hence the idea that she might have been the reincarnation of Nefertiti, rather than a proto-Chibcha Indian of no historical significance, is something to employ extreme skepticism on. But AFAIAC there is some unfakeable evidence supporting her allegation.

On that, I’ll end this rather long and meandering post.

Why?

Agreed, Polycarp: there is only absence of evidence rather than evidence of absence, and you cannot disprove something which is not observable.

Googling “Nefertiti floor plan Akhenaten” gave me nowt. I realise you probably can’t provide much more than what you have already, I just wondered whether she had told anyone else or taken it further somehow?

(Again, my skeptic head says that drawings being judged to be “similar” are a notorious spoiler of even the best psychic investigation)