Patreon, GoFundMe, Kickstarter or IndieGogo?

[gaffa]

What are Dopers experience with these crowd-funding systems, and can I get your opinion about which (of any) of these I should consider?

For nearly a decade, I have had a tiny business recording concerts. I bring in eight cameras, place them everywhere, tie into the sound board and produce a fully edited concert video. The majority of my work, more than 300 1.5 to 2 hour shows, has been for music schools. The schools have three seasons a year, and I have been delivering the edited shows on DVD for $25 each.

Here’s the problem - people don’t appear to want physical media any more, and my sales have been declining. Some of the younger parents may never have bought any optical discs or may not have any way to play them.

I’d love to deliver digitally, but obviously one file is going to be shared everywhere. Even the password-protected sites like Vimeo offer no special protection, and a password would be shared on Facebook.

So I’ve been thinking about a crowd-funding system - “If I get enough of a commitment, I’ll put the complete show up on YouTube and/or Facebook.” I have a long history of quality work and have established my trustworthiness.

Most of these sites seem to be oriented towards continuing support for an art project or band, or a single album.

In the schools, some kids are only involved for a single four month season, some are committed for years - but most would only buy DVDs 3 times a year, spending $75 a year.

So, what is your take? If you had a child in a music school, how much would you consider fair as a monthly continuing contribution, or requested donation. Should I do it per season, and is that an option with the systems I mentioned?

Please: I would ask that this thread not be derailed over issues of copyright. Thank you.

[ZipperJJ]

Seems to me that you should just be negotiating terms with your clients - the schools. Get them to raise the funds to pay you what it’s worth to release the video on a platform, and then you release it on the platform. The schools can worry about how that money is raised. People can also buy discs on their own for a fee.

[kenobi_65]

I have a fair amount of experience with supporting project on Kickstarter (mostly role-playing games, but some art, as well). I’ve also contributed to a few GoFundMe campaigns, and I’m a supporter of several artists on Patreon. I’ve also supported the recording of several music albums (CDs) via other crowdfunding sites, some of which were by artists you may have heard of (including Peter Frampton, and Jon Anderson of Yes).

Kickstarter and GoFundMe (and, I think, IndieGoGo, as well as the other crowdfunding sites I’ve used) are structured around funding of a single project or campaign.

In the case of Kickstarter, it’s really best suited for trying to raise funds to deliver a particular product. Kickstarter campaigns usually (always?) have a minimum total pledge amount – if that minimum “go/no go” amount isn’t met by the end of the campaign period, you (the project creator) get no money. But, if your campaign meets (or exceeds) that minimum amount, funds are collected from all of the backers, and you’re then on the hook for delivering to your backers what you’d promised them when they pledged.

GoFundMe is more focused on fundraising / charity appeals (such as to pay medical expenses). It doesn’t seem to be well-suited for a for-profit sales purpose (and I’m not sure if they even allow it to be used for that). Like Kickstarter, GoFundMe campaigns are structured around a single campaign, with a certain goal in mind (e.g., “I need $2000 to pay for a new wheelchair”).

Patreon, unlike Kickstarter or GoFundMe, is an ongoing, monthly pledge that patrons are making to the person who’s set up the campaign. I currently support 3 different Patron projects (an artist, a web cartoonist, and an online radio station) – on the first of every month, Patreon bills my credit card for the total I’ve pledged (on an monthly basis) to those 3 projects. What the Patreon subjects supply to their patrons is up to them (for instance, the web cartoonist I support shares early versions of his art, and exclusive extras, with his patrons). But, the Patreon campaigns (at least the ones I’ve supported) are open-ended; unless the campaign owner ends his / her Patreon project, or I actively choose to no longer support that project, my funding of it will keep going indefinitely.

Honestly, I’m not sure if either Kickstarer or Patreon really fit what you’re looking for; it seems like you would need to run a separate Kickstarter campaign for each show that you record.

[kenobi_65]

@kenobi_65

Honestly, I’m not sure if either Kickstarer or Patreon really fit what you’re looking for; it seems like you would need to run a separate Kickstarter campaign for each show that you record.

After giving this a bit more thought, and missing the edit window:

I think it’d be possible to structure a single Kickstarter campaign around you recording a series of concerts at a particular school, if you think that enough parents still want physical media. Let’s say that you would be recording 3 concerts at Washington High School: you could run a Kickstarter campaign, with different levels of support (e.g., “Pledge $20 for a DVD of one concert, $35 for DVDs of 2 concerts, or $50 for all three DVDs”).

But, it sounds like what you’re looking for is to get enough funding upfront to make it worth your while to record the concerts, which you’d then put up on Youtube. I imagine that you could do it that way, with your “deliverable” being you actually recording the concert, and posting it on Youtube afterwards. You could probably do a “bonus level” in your Kickstarter pledge structure to deliver physical copies of the recordings (e.g., your minimum pledge amount – say, $50 – simply goes to getting the concerts recorded, but supporters could pledge more in exchange for receiving DVDs).

[gaffa]

@ZipperJJ

Seems to me that you should just be negotiating terms with your clients - the schools. Get them to raise the funds to pay you what it’s worth to release the video on a platform, and then you release it on the platform. The schools can worry about how that money is raised. People can also buy discs on their own for a fee.

My problem is that the schools are not my client, and cannot be due to sync rights. I’m performing a service for the parents.

[Bullitt]

I’ve contributed to a few GoFundMe campaigns. They’re more for individual fundraising efforts. People more so than companies, IME.

[gaffa]

@kenobi_65

After giving this a bit more thought, and missing the edit window:

I think it’d be possible to structure a single Kickstarter campaign around you recording a series of concerts at a particular school, if you think that enough parents still want physical media. Let’s say that you would be recording 3 concerts at Washington High School: you could run a Kickstarter campaign, with different levels of support (e.g., “Pledge $20 for a DVD of one concert, $35 for DVDs of 2 concerts, or $50 for all three DVDs”).

But, it sounds like what you’re looking for is to get enough funding upfront to make it worth your while to record the concerts, which you’d then put up on Youtube. I imagine that you could do it that way, with your “deliverable” being you actually recording the concert, and posting it on Youtube afterwards. You could probably do a “bonus level” in your Kickstarter pledge structure to deliver physical copies of the recordings (e.g., your minimum pledge amount – say, $50 – simply goes to getting the concerts recorded, but supporters could pledge more in exchange for receiving DVDs).

Ideally, I’d like to eliminate the physical product, as I have to duplicate them, make a DVD cover and mail them out, but I would be open to using it as a bonus.

The parents only want the DVD their kid is in, so I won’t be getting anyone interested in a whole season. I’m pretty sure I’d only be getting a single pledge amount per family, I’m just trying to get more families to participate.

It may never be economically feasible; the shows have from 12 to 25 kids in each. The most I’ve ever sold of a single title is 20, and one title sold only a single copy.

[gaffa]

@Bullitt

I’ve contributed to a few GoFundMe campaigns. They’re more for individual fundraising efforts. People more so than companies, IME.

It is just me, with the occasional assistance of my wife as an additional camera operator. I know a lot of musicians are using these crowdfunding systems to record an album that they would otherwise be selling via record stores, which is commerce in the end.

[gaffa]

@kenobi_65

I have a fair amount of experience with supporting project on Kickstarter (mostly role-playing games, but some art, as well). I’ve also contributed to a few GoFundMe campaigns, and I’m a supporter of several artists on Patreon. I’ve also supported the recording of several music albums (CDs) via other crowdfunding sites, some of which were by artists you may have heard of (including Peter Frampton, and Jon Anderson of Yes).

Kickstarter and GoFundMe (and, I think, IndieGoGo, as well as the other crowdfunding sites I’ve used) are structured around funding of a single project or campaign.

In the case of Kickstarter, it’s really best suited for trying to raise funds to deliver a particular product. Kickstarter campaigns usually (always?) have a minimum total pledge amount – if that minimum “go/no go” amount isn’t met by the end of the campaign period, you (the project creator) get no money. But, if your campaign meets (or exceeds) that minimum amount, funds are collected from all of the backers, and you’re then on the hook for delivering to your backers what you’d promised them when they pledged.

In my case, it would be “If I reach this funding goal, I’ll record and edit this whole season of shows and put the complete concerts on YouTube.” An upcoming season will be a total of 9 different shows like the previous season. It was recorded over three weekends, each show took 8 to 12 hours of editing. I sold from 1 to 9 copies of each title - a total of 46 DVDs sold, grossing $1,150 - which is terrible pay for six full days shooting and two months of evening work editing.

GoFundMe is more focused on fundraising / charity appeals (such as to pay medical expenses). It doesn’t seem to be well-suited for a for-profit sales purpose (and I’m not sure if they even allow it to be used for that). Like Kickstarter, GoFundMe campaigns are structured around a single campaign, with a certain goal in mind (e.g., “I need $2000 to pay for a new wheelchair”).

Patreon, unlike Kickstarter or GoFundMe, is an ongoing, monthly pledge that patrons are making to the person who’s set up the campaign. I currently support 3 different Patron projects (an artist, a web cartoonist, and an online radio station) – on the first of every month, Patreon bills my credit card for the total I’ve pledged (on an monthly basis) to those 3 projects. What the Patreon subjects supply to their patrons is up to them (for instance, the web cartoonist I support shares early versions of his art, and exclusive extras, with his patrons). But, the Patreon campaigns (at least the ones I’ve supported) are open-ended; unless the campaign owner ends his / her Patreon project, or I actively choose to no longer support that project, my funding of it will keep going indefinitely.

Honestly, I’m not sure if either Kickstarer or Patreon really fit what you’re looking for; it seems like you would need to run a separate Kickstarter campaign for each show that you record.

Good information, thanks. I would prefer to stick to a season, because the sad truth is sales are inversely proportional to skill - a kid doing their first show strumming along on a guitar that may or may not actually be plugged in will always outsell a kid on their 10th show playing some incredibly difficult piece of progressive rock.

[filmore]

@gaffa

So, what is your take? If you had a child in a music school, how much would you consider fair as a monthly continuing contribution, or requested donation. Should I do it per season, and is that an option with the systems I mentioned?

I can’t see this contribution model really working for the parents. I don’t feel that very many parents would donate money in this way. Maybe some will, but not enough to make any significant money. And then what happens with the videos if you don’t get enough contributions?

There are other clip selling platforms like www.uscreen.tv that might be better suited to your needs. Those platforms offer a variety of ways for customers to get the videos, such as subscriptions or one-time purchases.

I don’t think parents will share passwords all that much. The parents may share the video with their relatives, but they aren’t going to share it with a bunch of strangers. I don’t think the parents of the kids in music school will be that well connected to each other. You mentioned Facebook, so perhaps you could join any Facebook pages for the schools and keep an eye out for someone posting a link to the video.

Instead of DVDs, what about USB keys? I would guess 4GB keys are pretty cheap in bulk. Or what about selling the videos through ITunes or GooglePlay?

[ZipperJJ]

nm

[gaffa]

@filmore

I can’t see this contribution model really working for the parents. I don’t feel that very many parents would donate money in this way. Maybe some will, but not enough to make any significant money. And then what happens with the videos if you don’t get enough contributions?

If I don’t get enough commitments, I don’t shoot the season. I’d have to get it upfront as a successful campaign.

There are other clip selling platforms like www.uscreen.tv that might be better suited to your needs. Those platforms offer a variety of ways for customers to get the videos, such as subscriptions or one-time purchases.

I’ll check that out. $200 to $400 a year ongoing might be a deal killer for me. YouTube appeals because it’s free to me (the parents can get YouTube Red if they want to eliminate ads) and I have no on-going costs to keep the videos up.

My channel, where I put the best performances, has had two million views, and making performances universally available for the foreseeable future appeals. One of my videos has been shared very widely, and it closing in on half a million views. That has a tremendous appeal to the parents and kids that a huge number of people could see their performance.

I don’t think parents will share passwords all that much. The parents may share the video with their relatives, but they aren’t going to share it with a bunch of strangers. I don’t think the parents of the kids in music school will be that well connected to each other. You mentioned Facebook, so perhaps you could join any Facebook pages for the schools and keep an eye out for someone posting a link to the video.

If I could get enough support to shoot and edit the season, I wouldn’t care how much they share them. Part of the reason I do this (as opposed to shooting weddings) is that I love music, and every season I see some really amazing performances.

Instead of DVDs, what about USB keys? I would guess 4GB keys are pretty cheap in bulk. Or what about selling the videos through ITunes or GooglePlay?

I’ve considered that, and have looked into shooting a concert live, doing a live switch and delivering a USB key at the end of the show. The problem is that it would involve a larger number of people. iTunes and Google Play are not an option due to sync right.

[Bullitt]

As a parent of a now-professional dancer, and two other kids in arts performance series* but now are adults who aren’t performers, I would have loved for their performances professionally filmed and uploaded to YouTube for perpetuity. I would not pay for a subscription, but I’d pay for specific performances. Sometimes you don’t want to buy a recording until after you’ve seen it. Up-front payments for not-yet-seen performances would be a turn-off.

I suggest you initially establish a price point on the low-ish side, and upload to YouTube. After a few seasons, hopefully you can see how popular they are. If they grow in popularity, raise your price. You can use prior season recordings to advertise for the current season. Establish the demand first, and then raise prices later to make it worth your while. You are in control of supply. Early seasons at lower prices would be your investment into this business model concept.

After a while your price point will be determined by your customers. Too high, and people won’t buy. Too low, and you won’t want to do it.

But, as a parent, having my kids’ performances forever on YouTube would be awesome! My dancer son performs out of NYC and tours the world. Being able to see his early works would be a treasure. It’d be a treasure for any parent.

• — SFB and SFAEP, San Francisco Ballet, and Arts Education Project

[gaffa]

@Bullitt

As a parent of a now-professional dancer, and two other kids in arts performance series* but now are adults who aren’t performers, I would have loved for their performances professionally filmed and uploaded to YouTube for perpetuity. I would not pay for a subscription, but I’d pay for specific performances. Sometimes you don’t want to buy a recording until after you’ve seen it. Up-front payments for not-yet-seen performances would be a turn-off.

Really? I thought the fact that it was your kids would be enough.

The subscription model is a turn-off?

I suggest you initially establish a price point on the low-ish side, and upload to YouTube. After a few seasons, hopefully you can see how popular they are. If they grow in popularity, raise your price. You can use prior season recordings to advertise for the current season. Establish the demand first, and then raise prices later to make it worth your while. You are in control of supply. Early seasons at lower prices would be your investment into this business model concept.

I have more than 1,300 videos on YouTube and have been doing this since 2009. Every season, I’ve tried to improve the quality of the audio and video - like mounting a GoPro camera just above the tom-toms of the drum kit to capture the drummer, and another by the kids. I’m also doing handheld. My work is a known quantity.

After a while your price point will be determined by your customers. Too high, and people won’t buy. Too low, and you won’t want to do it.

But, as a parent, having my kids’ performances forever on YouTube would be awesome! My dancer son performs out of NYC and tours the world. Being able to see his early works would be a treasure. It’d be a treasure for any parent.

Some parents have used my videos in their college application process. Half a dozen of the kids I’ve recorded are in Berklee right now.

[kopek]

I have never started or tried to manage one and the only ones I will contribute to (to this point) are GoFundMe. I am not sure why but I just never got a good feel from the others any time I’ve come across a cause/person using one.

[Bullitt]

@gaffa

Really? I thought the fact that it was your kids would be enough.

It might be for some parents, but I didn’t want DVDs and VHSs of every single performance. That would be a lot of performances. If in your experience, every parent wants every recording, that’s cool. Not me. Just like you said earlier when some buy only 3.

The subscription model is a turn-off?

Yes. I want to pay for a single performance for only the ones I want. I don’t want to pay for performances I don’t care to keep.

I have more than 1,300 videos on YouTube and have been doing this since 2009. Every season, I’ve tried to improve the quality of the audio and video - like mounting a GoPro camera just above the tom-toms of the drum kit to capture the drummer, and another by the kids. I’m also doing handheld. My work is a known quantity.

Some parents have used my videos in their college application process. Half a dozen of the kids I’ve recorded are in Berklee right now.

Okay, that is great. You’re a known quantity. I did not mean to infer that you weren’t, but since you are, and you’ve established demand already, then just skip those steps and go directly to determining your good price point. I think $20 for a performance is a fair price.

[gaffa]

@Bullitt

It might be for some parents, but I didn’t want DVDs and VHSs of every single performance. That would be a lot of performances. If in your experience, every parent wants every recording, that’s cool. Not me. Just like you said earlier when some buy only 3.

I’m trying to determine what would be a price that the parents would be willing to pay to know that all the shows would be recorded. In this case, there are only three shows a season, so it’s not an overwhelming number. I do have parents who want every show, and some who buy multiple copies to send to relatives. Just not enough of them.

Yes. I want to pay for a single performance for only the ones I want. I don’t want to pay for performances I don’t care to keep.

What would be the price point where you wouldn’t care?

Okay, that is great. You’re a known quantity. I did not mean to infer that you weren’t, but since you are, and you’ve established demand already, then just skip those steps and go directly to determining your good price point. I think $20 for a performance is a fair price.

If I could get the majority of the parents to contribute $20 a season, I think I could continue.

[filmore]

I think any sort of pre-funding model will have difficulties in this area. You continually have new parents who will need to be educated as to how it works. They may not know if they want the videos at the beginning of the season. If they pre-contribute, they may think of that as a sale and be upset if you are unable to record shows for whatever reason.

From past experience, do you have a sense for how many videos you’ll sell over the season based on the early shows? That is, if early shows don’t sell very much, does that carry through to later seasons? If so, you could record the first show and see how much interest you have to know if you should record the whole season.

I think a better model would be based around making impulse buys as easy as possible. For example:

• At each show, take payment for the video that you’ll deliver at a later date (like the next show). Provide the option of how they want it: DVD, USB, or password to video site. If you’re worried about password sharing, give them a password to a copy specific to them (spring-performance-1-joe-smith pw: 123ABCXXX). But I personally don’t think a parent will share a password protected video with the other parents all that often. For the parents that want online, get their email and send them the link and pw when it’s available.

• At each show, sell copies of previous shows. Bring a laptop so you can work on making USB/DVDs right there. So like at the 2nd show, allow people to buy the 1st show and you work on making copies while doing the recording. USB keys you could have already copied for immediate sale.

• To encourage participation, say that your ability to record future shows will be based on how much participation you get.

• Also say that if you reach your contribution goals, you’ll upload the videos to YouTube 6 months after the end of the season. This way people who want the videos now can get them, but there will also be a place for everyone to see them as long as enough people contribute.

• Ask the school to put a blurb into the initial handouts which ask the parents to get videos from you rather than try to take their own. They could even phrase it like “Gaffa will be professionally recording most performances. To avoid disturbing the performers or other audience members, we encourage you get a recording from him when available rather than making your own recording.” They could also make a similar announcement before the performance starts. I personally would love it if I didn’t have to watch the show over a sea of phone screens.

You might also want to say it’s a contribution rather than a price. Have suggested contribution amounts and say that a portion of the proceeds will go to the school. I think some people may be more willing to buy them that way.

[gaffa]

@filmore

I think any sort of pre-funding model will have difficulties in this area. You continually have new parents who will need to be educated as to how it works. They may not know if they want the videos at the beginning of the season. If they pre-contribute, they may think of that as a sale and be upset if you are unable to record shows for whatever reason.

Fair point. I like the idea of Kickstarter, where unless I meet the funding goal, I don’t collect anything.

From past experience, do you have a sense for how many videos you’ll sell over the season based on the early shows? That is, if early shows don’t sell very much, does that carry through to later seasons? If so, you could record the first show and see how much interest you have to know if you should record the whole season.

There is a core of kids who love it and remain in for the long haul, and there are some who do it for one or two seasons. A season happens in a very short amount of time. The upcoming one will be nine shows over ten days, so that’s not really applicable.

I think a better model would be based around making impulse buys as easy as possible. For example:

• At each show, take payment for the video that you’ll deliver at a later date (like the next show). Provide the option of how they want it: DVD, USB, or password to video site. If you’re worried about password sharing, give them a password to a copy specific to them (spring-performance-1-joe-smith pw: 123ABCXXX). But I personally don’t think a parent will share a password protected video with the other parents all that often. For the parents that want online, get their email and send them the link and pw when it’s available.

Good ideas, but I’m so busy doing the shooting that I can’t spend the time doing anything else. I’m lucky if I can approach every parent. If they have multiple shows in one day, the schools want to keep people there for the next show, so I’ll often only have 10 minutes between one show and the next, and it’s all I can do to change the memory cards in the cameras.

• At each show, sell copies of previous shows. Bring a laptop so you can work on making USB/DVDs right there. So like at the 2nd show, allow people to buy the 1st show and you work on making copies while doing the recording. USB keys you could have already copied for immediate sale.

I might do that with USB keys that I could erase. I have a 3’ stack of unsold DVDs left from when I was bringing previous season DVDs with me.

• To encourage participation, say that your ability to record future shows will be based on how much participation you get.

I’ve spoken to the schools about this. They really want the shows recorded, as it shows just how successful the program is, but they cannot collect funds for me.

• Also say that if you reach your contribution goals, you’ll upload the videos to YouTube 6 months after the end of the season. This way people who want the videos now can get them, but there will also be a place for everyone to see them as long as enough people contribute.

I’ve done that. I have 5 terabytes of old full shows, but greatest interest seems to be immediately. I’ve thought about uploading each song as I finish editing it, so they will be eagerly waiting for the next video. But with crowdfunding, they have no reason to contribute as I’ve already committed to putting up everything.

• Ask the school to put a blurb into the initial handouts which ask the parents to get videos from you rather than try to take their own. They could even phrase it like “Gaffa will be professionally recording most performances. To avoid disturbing the performers or other audience members, we encourage you get a recording from him when available rather than making your own recording.” They could also make a similar announcement before the performance starts. I personally would love it if I didn’t have to watch the show over a sea of phone screens.

Hell, we have parents holding up 12" iPad Pros! My current tripod is is 10’ tall to get over the sea of phones. I do have parents tell me that they love my work, that they can watch their kid rather than their phone.

You might also want to say it’s a contribution rather than a price. Have suggested contribution amounts and say that a portion of the proceeds will go to the school. I think some people may be more willing to buy them that way.

They do have a scholarship program that I could contribute a portion to. Excellent suggestion.

[Bullitt]

@gaffa

My problem is that the schools are not my client, and cannot be due to sync rights. I’m performing a service for the parents.

@gaffa

I’ve spoken to the schools about this. They really want the shows recorded, as it shows just how successful the program is, but they cannot collect funds for me.

IANAE on copyrights and sync rights, and I briefly read Wikipedia’s page on sync rights. Can you sell your services and videos to the schools, since they want the performances recorded, and then the school distributes them (e.g., the YouTube private link) and incorporates the cost in the tuition or some other fee? Why cant’t that happen? The schools are not your client. Can they be your customer? I guess it’s some restriction due to sync rights that restricts you from selling to the school? I don’t get that, and if the explanation is simple then I’d appreciate it, but if complicated just say so. Maybe it’s on that Wiki page and I missed it.

But if it can be done, that seems the easiest way to go.