Patrician 3 versus Capitalism 2 versus Crusader Kings: you decide!

I prefer Ecclesial Balance over Church Supremacy. I don’t like having to pay the large tithes that you are locked into that way. And Ecclesial Balance still gives you decent piety and decent wealth.

As far as money goes, you can certainly spend many years savings in a hurry. Try a huge country like Germany and you will find that you have tons of money, but still not enough to raise ALL your armies for that long.

I tend to try out the different regions in my campaigns, and they all seem to play a bit differently. I’ve been playing the Italian area with Apulia lately, but before that I was playing a game that covered substantial parts of England, Scotland, Ireland and Greenland. Beyond that you have the Russian Orthodox powers in the East, France and Germany, Scandanavia.

You can’t play Muslim countries in the stock game but there are mods that allow you to do so.

As far as marriages, you should click on the shields of some of your neighboring powers, and further off powers if you want, and look at their courtiers. If you find a potential wife amongst the courtiers, you can propose.

Generally, if you’re not proactive about your female courtiers, you will receive marriage proposals from other courts. You can reject those offers and try to arrange a more strategy marriage if you want though.

Playing as one of the Russian Orthodox powers can be fun, cause you have plenty of Pagan targets in the east. Like fighting Muslims, when you fight Pagans, you get the territories you take right away, rather than having to negotiate a truce. Plus most of the pagans are pretty weak.

Also, as one of the Russian powers, you will be on the front lines of the war with the Mongols that happens later. Unfortunately, the mongols have been disappointing the two times I’ve played late enough to see them.

With the mongols weaker than they were historically, the Muslims preserved there power base quite well into the late game in both of my favorite playthroughs, and they always seemed to have the perfect system of alliances, to make it hard to gain much ground.

I’ve seen almost all of Spain, Italy, Scandanavia and large parts of Russia held by the Fatimids, Seljuks and their vassals at one point in time.

My own Kingdoms have reached as large as holding England, Ireland, Scotland, substantial parts of Northern Africa, France and a few counties in Italy. I created a strange African Kingdom title. The game developers have come up with Kingdoms even for areas that never were Christian Kingdoms, so if you conquer large parts of the Middle East or Africa you can get these new Kingdom titles.

The problem when you are large is there are a number of events that can hit you hard, and you have so many vassals, that its hard to keep them all in line. And all of your vassals put together have more power than you do, so even if a majority of them rebel against you, they have the chance to wipe you out.

Plus there is an event that makes them disloyal and starts causing your empire to pretty much crumble. That event hit me three times in my last long campaign. But I had the pleasure of wiping out England permanently by the end of the game, at least as the normal entity of the Isles.

I enjoyed that because England had played very smart as an AI and several times declared war on me out of the blue and forced me to struggle mightily to keep Scotland and Ireland.

To me this game isn’t really about winning or losing. Its more like Sim Feudal Society. I don’t really care if I get the highest score at the end of the campaign, which is technically how you win. I have heard of a few incredible stories of World Conquest in CK. These are the best players of the game ever, way better than me, and even for them it is a huge task to try to conquer the world.

Unlike games like Civ where you gain more power and gain more advantages as you get larger, CK follows the historical cycle of societies where they become more powerful and larger but eventually crumble or get reduced in power due too bad leaders or just too many lands to properly keep a hold on.

It definitely helps to go after titles rather than just “land”, because you can farm out a good chunck of titles to your offspring. While I’m still figuring it out, sending the yung’uns to Church schools helps their ratings, inclouding making them more capable of holding larger demenses. A lot of plyers build Chuches and libraries and so forth, greatly increasing the chances of the kids getting good scores.

And Feudal Contract. ALWAYS Feudal Contract. A bit of proactive vassal-beatdowns on occaision if you see one getting disloyal can really help things. There are reasons not to take it, but not good ones by my lights. While I haven’t yet built any gargatuan empires yet, I’ve easily held onto all of historical Poland and added almost 2/3 of Lithuania (need just one more province to become King of Lithuania!) while still avoiding foreign wars and dramatically improving my infrastructure.

I did have to gold cheat in my current game, but that was largely my own fault and I did it for kicks alone: Somehow some muslim power sent a random dude over to conquer Rome and succeeded, so I sent almost my entire military down to kick them out again. Sure, it took six months and drained my treasury to -1000, but it was worth it for humor value. In my defense, I did become the Papal Controller, but my piety was skyrocketing anyway so it was fairly likely what with my large Archbishopric. I also simply haven’t been using the power it gives me.)

Two things:

1.) Regiment size is based purely on county income at any given time - the higher the income, the larger the army. Note this is not base income, but adjusted income after all modifiers are added up. This is why that after intrigue ( which governs demesne size limits, among other things ) stewardship is the most valuable trait for your ruler and why a high quality steward is also high on the list of office aquisitions ( neck and neck with the chancellor for larger realms, tops in smaller ones ). In line with this:

1a) Palermo has a naturally large base income. Provinces run the gamut in base income from dirt-poor Irish provinces to staggeringly wealthy Venice. Palermo is on the upper-end of that scale.
1b) Many Muslim states start the game in 1066 with more economic tech than Christian neighbors.
1c) Muslim rulers get a boost to stats to help the AI. And…
2.) States at war, AI included, have a chance for mercenary events to fire, getting a big chunk of troops cheap.

2a) States in a religious war I believe ( depending on version and patch ) can get a jihad/crusader event that gives free or virtually free troops.

So rich Palermo with a high stewardship ruler with a spiffy steward advisor with lots of economic enhancements that gets a mercenary/jihad event can suddenly raise a bugger of an army. Note that all of the above except the Muslim bonus to stats and the very early tech advantage can work to your benefit as well.

Flawed, but still one of my all time favorite games. Top three, maybe. I’m glad you picked it :).

So am I!

Actually, I’ve also been looking into trying to find good wives. I bloody well need a friggin list of eligable wives/husbands, because it’s a huge pain to look through everything trying to find one. :smiley:

Sounds like you’ve started to really get familiar with the game, which is cool. I never noticed Feudal Contract having a bonus to keeping your empire together. I know one of the choices locks in your caste loyalty, so I’m not fond of that because it means that if you burghers go down to 80% loyalty, they can’t build back up to 100%, but I don’t remember the details on that.

I’m still playing the old CK, so there’s probably a number of differences between that and DV. My game lately has been the Fall From Heaven mod in Civilization 4, so I’m just starting to play CK again recently. I enjoy playing as many years of a campaign as I can, because my #1 favorite thing to do is to watch as the world changes over time, and see all the crazy situations developing on the map.

Definitely it is a pain to find wives / husbands. I’m lazy, I usually just let my eligible bachlorettes be proposed to, and if its a reasonably prestigious guy compared to my ruler, I will approve the marriage. Then I just work on finding brides for my current leader, and vassalize my sons, which allows them to pick their own brides. I could be a lot more careful about that part of the game, but it is a real pain trying to find the right men and women, especially when your court becomes full of people.

If you have the Deus Vult expansion, you do realize there is a searchable ledger page for eligible brides, yes? Can be searched by age, a given stat, ethnicity, etc… What it can’t search are inheritances, which has to be done manually. The ledger in general is a godsend, relative to the vanilla game - here’s a picture of the court inheritance page, if you haven’t stumbled on this feature yet.

ETA: It’s not an intuitive find. Little middle gold button next to the small map in the bottom corner.

The differences are very significant from a role-playing perspective, which I think is far and away the best way to approach the game. For instance adding friendships/enemies/fosterages/increased bastard events really adds to fleshing out the dynastic personalities. Nothing like getting an exiled and resentful bastard son, who then claims legitimacy while in another court and assassinates your ruler to usurp the throne over the feeble protests of his younger legitimate siblings. Or a wife that hates your guts installed as steward due to her great stats that then embezzles your entire treasury. Good times! And the ledger can really streamline micromanagement as above.

It’s all about family. I never try to build too unwieldy of an empire, which the game mechanics are designed to discourage anyway. I play with salic primogeniture for the most part, but try to expand rationally and in line with ruler personality traits - some will be warlike conquerors, some intrigue-heavy lovers of assassination and expansion by marriage, some pious crusaders uninterested in harassing their good Christian neighbors but eager to smite infidels in the Holy Land and damn the cost, some pacific cowards content to sit home and quaff wine. I also like to split off kingdoms to younger “favorite” sons as the realm grows and see what the AI does with the them.

I will have to buy Deus Vult now. The additional relationships sound really cool, and the marriage finder is neat also. I generally try to build empires, often by crusading but sometimes I just decide I want to wipe out some Kingdom or something. I don’t really mind it when things go badly, its just a chance to rebuild later. I like the process of rebuilding and regaining previous heights of Glory. Its like the Byzantines periodically tried to reclaim their empire, and I do the same thing if/when I lose a substantial amount of land.

I continued my game as Apulia tonight, I started from my save in 1070. Richard has a very good martial score, so it made since to collect some cash and then go to war.

I found that a couple of the Italian counts near me were independent, and I had a claim on them. I took down one of them fairly quickly.

Unfortunately, my ally Serbia got in a war with one of their neighbors, which I helped out with. I ended up being in the hole about 250 gold. I noticed then, that once I could get 250 gold in the black, I now had enough of the counties of Naples to create King of Naples.

I waited patiently, got 250 gold, and became the King of Naples. Immediately, two other Italian counts in lands traditionally part of Naples declared that they wanted to become vassals. I happily agreed, and now I have the bottom of the boot of italy as my sole domain. There are two counts between me and the Pope, and then various Bishoprics and lands of the King of Germany further north in Italy.

I wanted at least one Duke vassal, it never seems right to be a King with all counts as vassals. So I saved up 100 gold and created the Duke of Benevento title. Robert’s brother was ruling Benevento, so I granted him the title, and he automatically claimed one of the appropriate vassals that was part of the duchy (don’t remember which one.)

So then, I ended up creating a few more duke titles and keeping them for now, and then I looked around for what to do expansion wise. For italy, my lands were pretty darn poor. I had a couple counties with decent income and the rest, including my capital, pretty much were awfully poor.

Also, I didn’t see any immediate opportunities for bite sized conquests nearby. Before I could think about what to do for too long, the Kingdom of the Fatimids declared war on my vassal Reggio, which owned one of the counties next to Palermo. Actually, Palermo declared war on Reggio, then the Fatimids joined the war as allies, then I responded in defend of my vassal.

I’ll probably get crushed. I have beat the Fatimids before, but only as the huge British Isles powerhouse I played in my last game. Currently I have maybe 11k troops available if I recruit everyone and no where near enough money to keep them in the field for long. I should have ignored the war on Reggio and sucked up the loss of two vassal counties, but that’s less fun.

My first plan is to wipe out Palermo. I’ve got help from Reggio who have activated their own forces before I could recruit them myself, and Palermo has only 4000 troops active at the moment. I should be able to overpower them and take their two provinces. But then I’m going to be in severe danger of the Fatimid counterattack.

IMHO it’s not really to your advantage most of the time. Kings gain prestige/month based on the number of duke vassals and king titles, but get zip from either count vassals or holding duke titles, other than the headaches of managing 5x or whatever as many vassals. In Deus Vult at least, where vassals can take a dislike to you based on grounds of both personal animosity and opposing personality traits, if you’re big enough you will almost always have vassals that have declining loyalty unless you just have superb combined diplomacy ratings. The more vassals you have, the more brush fires you then have to continually put out. Just like a real medieval ruler ;).

Playing as a king, I usually keep a “royal duchy” or two, primarily as an eventual appanage for my primary heir, to boost his own prestige before inheriting. But I give out almost all the rest of them, as geographically accurately as is reasonable ( barring keeping particularly wealthy demesne counties ). Really cuts down on the number of vassals I have to worry about and generates more prestige, which in turn enhances both vassal loyalty and the ability to claim titles when necessary.

Well, Godfrey, my inbred King of Naples, actually didn’t have too bad of a go. For about 30 years, things went swimmingly, even putting down a rebellion by his Uncle the Duke of Sicily and then (like in smiling bandit’s game, I had to liberate the Papal states because the Sheikdom of Corsica(!!!) blazed right through Rome.

However, a few years later I (Godfrey), had war declared upon my by the Countess of Leptis Magna. I was fiercely pissed off at this, and just as I’m about to land, the Pope calls for the Peace of God. I decide that I’d rather like the Peace of Godfrey rather than God and told the Pope to shove it. So I gained Leptis Magna at the cost of being excommunicated. Bad, bad move. My once devotedly loyal vassals were not happy. Uprisings everywhere and it was essentially game over. I decided that it was time to get Deus Vult and start anew.

So that’s what I did! Very happy to start with Richard de Hauteville again in Apulia. Also, I’m happy so far with the changes. The friends/rivals thing is a real improvement. Can’t wait to play this out this weekend.

Thanks for the tip; sadly, I don’t have Deus Vult so I can’t use it. :smiley:

My little war with the Fatimids went very well! Palermo raised around 4000 troops. I sent the bulk of my forces there, keeping around a 1000 troops on the Italian mainland.

On the mainland, the Fatimids invaded Reggio with a force of about 1100 troops, so I rushed my mainland force there, winning the battle handily. That set the stage of the war. Another group of about 500 Fatimid troops attacked Reggio next. I won that battle and pretty much secured the mainland.

On the Palermo island (what the heck is that island actually called?), my forces were arriving from sea. I moved my local forces raised from Siracusa to join them.

That gave Palermo an excuse to attack Siracusa, so I went back and won a battle against them at roughly even odds. My units must be fighting with better equipment cause I won several battles during the war at even odds and didn’t lose a fight.

I figured I’d weakened the morale of the Palermo units so I rushed next to the province of Palermo. While I took Palermo, (turning them into the Sheikdom of Agrimento instead), they took Siracusa.

I defeated their forces at Siracusa and retook the Province. Sheikdom of Agrimento tried to take out my vassal, Trapani, but Trapani had raised their own forces and fought off the attack.

With Siracusa conquered and the Sheikdom on defense, I attacked the last province on the island, Agrimento itself. The odds were 3400 or so on my side against 4000 on theirs, but they were demoralized from the defeats before and I crushed them. They kept reattacking but I won each time, and eventually I took Agrimento.

Of course, this whole time I was watching for a huge invasion force of Fatimid troops. Never happened. I decided to offer peace to the Fatimids, and obviously they were not interested in the conflict (probably got dragged into it by Palermo in the first place), and they agreed to peace.

So the whole island is mine now, and I’m up to 7 provinces of my own in addition to vassals. Plus the island is pretty rich compared to the rest of my lands. This went WAY better than I expected. I need to save up some cash for the future now. I’m at -108 right now.

Well worth an extra $15, unless you’re down to Ramen this month :).

Palermo island is Sicily.

-108 is pretty darn good from my few experiences. I usually end up down at least twice that. Good luck!