Sure white folks that kept their views to themselves or risk the Klan knocking at their door. Of course a non-white person would have it way worse and the risk be much higher, but “white folk” needed to toe the line too. Our president was shot in the head for freeing slaves, remember?
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I’ve gone over the joke and the quote thing. Sorry, I agree. If you are explaining to your grandchildren to not say a word, but explaining why certain use they hear is acceptable, like black people saying it in a kitchen to each other, or your uncle telling another one of his distasteful jokes. I don’t see a problem with quoting what I heard someone say and I get the same level of offended when I hear racist jokes that he do when I hear jokes about women, blonds, christian, jews, dogs and preachers, which is I don’t.
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I agree that she shifted the blame, but this does nothing to support your argument. This seems to say that she is offended by the use of the word.
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I have read this article. It’s funny you post this as supportive of your argument though. The article show pics and quotes from Hollis’ Twitter feed. She also calls him a son, Hollis says he loves her and Paula’s husband goes on to say how he and Hollis overcame their mutual homophobia after getting to know Paula’s make up people. Hollis didn’t seem patronized one bit. Maybe you should project your feelings onto the situation.
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Your last point just shows you really haven’t paid much attention to the situation. The “little niggers” comment was in the original complaint filed by the plaintiff, but when testifying on the stand and asked about, Lisa Jackson said she never heard Paula say the n-word.
Yes, we know. You’ve said that. You identify with the type of person Deen is, so you defend her and, in turn, defend yourself.
And then you turn around and say that people are reading more than you wrote. Priceless.
- Don’t teach your kids that shit. That’s bad parenting. Hell, that’s bad humaning.
- Yep, she knew how harmful that word is in the workplace, that’s why she attempted to shift blame.
- Yes, even though he’s black. I bet some of your best friends are black, so you can’t be racist, right?
- I don’t care how she referred to blacks, she lamented the fact that she can’t dress up her black employees as little slaves in order to recreate an antebellum wedding. Decent people don’t wish to return to that time period and wax romantic about the days when we kidnapped, sold, beat, starved, and owned other people.
Because feeling that you owe other people an apology and feeling that others owe you an apology are two different feelings, with two different standard and two differents sets of motives. They are not relevant to each other.
These are not parallel constructions. You cannot apply the same analysis.
We’re judging her by her own sworn testimony. There is nothing to misconstrue.
Exactly.
You have got to be kidding me. There is a huge difference between (1) hiring actors to portray slaves in order to create and historical depiction of a certain place and time, and (2) hiring service people to dress and behave as slaves so that you can live out your sick fantasy of being a white slave owner being served by black slaves.
A president who led a war to defeat the Confederacy and eliminate slavery was shot in the head (1 such president : 1 assassination = 100 percent). I would say that the number of slave-owners’ daughters who expressed objections to the institution of slavery were likely to have suffered similar repercussions at a much, much lower proportional rate.
And the KKK was not known for killing white women who personally harbored objections to racial discrimination, whether in the form of slavery or Jim Crow. If they had tried to take their views public through political action, then they might have been silenced, but certainly not in the way that a black man would have been treated for looking the wrong way at a white woman.
However, simply not using the word “nigger”? Simply not expressing fantasies about being served by black slaves at her wedding? Simply not making demeaning racial comments or jokes? No, there would be no repurcussions. Zero. Certainly not in the lifetime of anyone who is still living.
I just realize why aag thinks Deen’s not having a picnic. Why, there are no liveried, shall we say swarthy servants scraping and bowing!
Paula Deen is a martyr. She’s done so much in the name of equality and in the fight against racism. Only mocking black people sometimes, and refusing, absolutely refusing, to say “nigger” except on the rare occasions it’s absolutely necessary, like when telling jokes or when a black person makes you angry.
She is the Rosa Parks of chefs. And for that, her own people are oppressing her.
- When was she teaching kids that? It’s explanation. “Mom, I thought that was a bad word. Why is that person saying it, or why is it used in that song or why is the group of people that are the most offended by it using it” “It is but some black people use it with each other. You shouldn’t say it.”
- She didn’t say it in the work place, per testimony. She said it in her home, 30 years ago. She is getting reamed for it now. I don’t really find it that surprising that provides instances where she is offended present day when she hears it now.
- What does that even mean? Point is, YOU project YOUR feelings onto him about the situation. Seems like, if you look at evidence from him at the time, he wasn’t feeling patronized and seemed to like Paula and the position he held with her.
- Really, lamented… She briefly mentioned how impressed she was with another place she experienced that did it and that she would like to recreate it, then brushed the idea off. She in fact CAN so such a thing if she wanted to and opted not to. When people want to recreate the antebellum south, they are not trying to recreate slavery. There were other aspects of the time period.
Ascenray, you say my analogy isn’t parallel, then explain how it isn’t.
My ancestors potentially owned slaves. As a woman, 150 years ago, my female ancestors would have also been considered property and also subject to some pretty poor treatment. (and please, before we go there, I of course realize that non-whites would have had it much much worse). The treatment of my ancestors does not make me believe I should be apologized to. I don’t feel sorry for the abuses of my ancestors. Seems like a pretty parallel comparison. I need more than your disagreement to see otherwise.
Also, you are not passing judgment on her sworn testimony. You are passing judgment on headlines and the one-sided crap the media is reporting. I know that is what your doing because you used one of the many stories that reported what the original complaint stated, which was the comment about the “little niggers” serving the wedding. In her sworn testimony, Paula AND the plaintiff denied Paula ever said that word. So my question, AGAIN:
“What if Paula’s views are misconstrued and over blown? What if you are all passing judgment on a situation where you have been presented inaccurate information? Is it fair to judge her under these circumstances?”
BTW, is that news provider being racist by quoting the original complaint saying that Paula said “Well what I would really like is a bunch of little niggers to wear long-sleeve white shirts, black shorts and black bow ties, you know in the Shirley Temple days, they used to tap dance around,”. Because by you guys’ logic, the media is being racist. Well, except for the black reporters.
Also, Paula Deen has apologized profusely and said that the word should never be used and that it’s offensive and that she was wrong to use it.
“You have got to be kidding me. There is a huge difference between (1) hiring actors to portray slaves in order to create and historical depiction of a certain place and time, and (2) hiring service people to dress and behave as slaves so that you can live out your sick fantasy of being a white slave owner being served by black slaves.”
How is it different? Both scenarios involve hiring people to recreate a certain place and time. In neither instance, are the people hired slaves. In fact the service folk would be less like acting as a slave since they are just servers and not expecting to act like slaves. Just smile and keep the drinks flowing.
And sure, white people could personally not agree with the practice of slavery and Jim Crow, but if they attempted to challenge the social norm of the time, they faced harsh repercussions. Obviously, it was not on the level of non-whites.
“However, simply not using the word “nigger”? Simply not expressing fantasies about being served by black slaves at her wedding? Simply not making demeaning racial comments or jokes? No, there would be no repurcussions. Zero. Certainly not in the lifetime of anyone who is still living.”
What does this even mean?? Do you think that I’m saying that people that just didn’t practice slavery or Jim Crow faced similar repercussions as a black man looking at a white woman? That is absurd and I seriously am questioning your comprehension skills. Clearly I am talking about people that were challenging the slave or racial institution. Not people that simply don’t agree and are complacent.
Huh?
She distracts from the fight against racism because the media only seeks sensational tidbits to cause a ruckus because they know most dumbasses will jump at the first nasty rumor they find. Especially if it involves someone famous. And they will spend their time talking about how horrible a person is, rather than bothering to find out the whole story or have a level head and withhold judgment.
So true. If only we had someone like Paula Deen and you, telling racist jokes, calling people nigger but only in private, to lead the way.
Why do we destroy our heroes? WHY?
Expecting to be apologized to is not parallel to thinking you owe someone else an apology. Period. If you don’t understand that, then think about it some more.
What in holy hell are you talking about?
No, hiring an actor to play a role in a film is part of telling a story to others against a backdrop of a certain place, time, or situation.
Wishing you could hire actors to pretend to be slaves serving at your own actual wedding because you want to feel like you are getting married in the context of a slave-owning society means that you enjoy or romanticize or idealize or wish for or admire that situation—being a white person surrounded by and served by black slaves.
Not on the level of non-whites? You must be joking.
What I’ve written above is the standard I’m setting for Paula Deen’s behavior and a standard I expect any adult alive today to be able to understand and abide by without any difficulty, regardless of whether they are Paula Deen’s age or older.
What we are talking about is Paula Deen. Did Paula Deen own slaves? Did Paula Deen live in a slave-owning society? Has anyone here asked Paula Deen to go back in time to the mid-19th century and try to overthrow southern society?
No. What we expect of Paula Deen—who was born in 1947, not 1847, which makes her only about 20 years older than me and about 10 years younger than my father—is to live in today’s world and be able to understand and abide by today’s standards.
Paula Fucking Deen lived through the sit-ins of the 1950s. She lived through the marches of the 1960s. From that point on, she lived through every part of American racial history that I did.
Paula Deen is not 170 years old. And, frankly, if there were a 170-year-old woman who was not suffering from dementia alive today, I’d expect more of her than this. She’s shy of 70 years old; she’s smart enough to have built a multi-million dollar business. There is no good fucking reason for Paula Deen not to understand what’s acceptable in today’s society.
Well overall I take a dim view of the South because of its history and because of the parade of dumb stuff coming out of there. It would be exhausting to be shocked by every Paula Deen. I guess it is a sort of self-defense mechanism. Plus, the former Confederacy, and not much else, voted as a bloc for Romney the Blank, which looks awfully weird in 2012.
I don’t know how big a distinction there is between my views and a simple prejudice against everyone in the South. I’ve lived in backwards places, and I know not everyone is cut from the same cloth in those places. Not every Southerner is going to be a racist, or ignorant or what-have-you, and I know that. But if I’m being completely honest (like I prefer), it is possible I am guilty of some fault or other.
I’m not so important though. It’d be great if the South started making me look bad all the time by proving me wrong. But look at this shit!(I know, people don’t like videos, but this one is tragicomic enough to be worth the 4 minutes).
I love how the racist defender focuses on the “ONE word 30 years ago!” thing and not on the totality of Deen’s complete obliviousness to racial issues. After the deposition kerfluffle, and her ridiculous nonpologies, she continued to be clueless. She said in the Today Show interview that she DOESN’T KNOW if the word is offensive to some people.
DOESN’T KNOW.
Which is one of two things.
- Utter, utter bullshit.
- Indicative of pathological stupidity.
This is merely one example of her ridiculously privileged response to this issue. If she’d said “yes, I’ve used that word, and learned over the years that such words and thoughts are harmful, and I regret it. I have tried to do better” or something that indicated that on some level she GETS that racist language and behavior is not acceptable, she wouldn’t be getting nearly the flack that she is.
But she, and the racist defender here, continue to insist that it’s NO BIG DEAL, not an issue, to not understand whether or not the word has an offensive history.
And before I get asked about whether or not I ‘understand’ her upbringing - I’m from S.C., my family money comes from our history of plantation ownership (and thus slave ownership), and I was brought up with people who used the word regularly and without irony. They’re racist assholes, Paula Deen is a racist asshole, and you aag are a racist asshole.
I thought this was steeped in denial:
Picking and choosing aspects of the Antebellum South to ‘enjoy’ seems like an exercise in denial. The whole culture amounted to a crew of pirates who owned a lot of land. The Antebellum South amounted to one of the worst crimes in human history. Enjoying the pretty dresses or what-have-you requires a big serving of denial. I could go on and on about this one, but briefly stated, denial puts a person into ‘two minds’, and it is hard to be in denial of any one specific thing because of the way our minds work- usually a whole constellation of things gets enmeshed with the true object of denial. We can see it in the mentality of the South with their embrace of Deen’s cooking, their rampant obesity- apparently common sense about food somehow gets enmeshed with all the things they are denying. Um… it is very hard to express and I don’t think you have access to this insight.
Well there is a formal sort of enlightenment which involves the realization of non-duality, or mouna- there is a lot of different talk around that- which is definitely beyond the reach of any slaver, or even racist. One just can’t be ‘of two minds’ to see it. Then there is the colloquial ‘not enlightened’ which we might apply to abrasive ignorant types. The South has to give up its denial to shake both kinds. Let me say now that I am probably going to disappoint when it comes to nailing the answer to this.
And I can see that. But I wonder if the justices who made that decision can clearly see that they’ve moved the country into a place where protections against racist voting laws just got repealed, making the nation worse (though an easier place for Republicans to get elected).
One could look at it that way. One could also look at it as the GOP, in its twilight as a national party, being handed a crutch in the form of freedom from anti-discriminatory voting law restrictions so that they can continue to hold power for a little while longer. Nobody who has been paying attention believes the GOP is in a hurry to impose an updated formula for the VRA. No, they are going to do nothing about it, and filibuster any attempt otherwise. I don’t think SCOTUS was outside their rights in making this decision, but then again it doesn’t seem like ‘things have changed’ all that much- the Deen story is practically the first thing that happened after that decision.
How is this, in any way, a response to what I said?
Don’t forget that aag3981 believes that everyone is racist. Of course it’s bullshit, but that’s what he says he believes.
I, for one, don’t for a minute believe that Deen only used the word in the sanctuary of her home. That’s just doesn’t come anywhere near to jibing with my experience with humanity and language.
Nonpology is now my new favorite word. I hope you’re the one who coined it!
:eek:
Could be both.
The word was offensive when it was first used. The word was offensive during the heyday of slavery in the US. The word was offensive when the English occupied India and used it to refer to the Indians. The word has always been offensive. Some words are what we linguists call taboo words. The word in question is one such. Always has been.
See my earlier post essentially saying the same.
Anyone who’s grown up in the South–heck, anyone who’s grown up anywhere in America at any time in the last 100 years or more–knows full well that the word in quesiton has an extremely offensive history. There’s a reason why it’s a taboo word and has been for basically ever.
I grew up in Virginia, Tennessee, and Georgia. My parents were born early in the Great Depression and grew in Richmond, Virginia. The man who adopted my father was born in the 1800s (he adopted my dad after his other children were grown). I have many relatives in the South. We were all raised to know that racism is wrong. We were all taught that certain words are unacceptable (aka taboo) words.
Yes, I do have a few relatives, a very few who exhibit racism. I don’t hang out with them. As the old saying goes, one can choose one’s friends but not one’s family. Well, one can choose to distance oneself from bad people. Racists are bad people. Deen’s finding out that her (former) corporate sponsors are making the choice to distance themselves from a bad person.
As one poster in this thread put it, racism is bad humaning.
Quote:
I was stating the circumstances I would expect an apology or expect to give one. I was responding to circumstances someone else would expect to give one. Again, considering the source of this discussion, I believe it fits and was parallel. If you are just going to stick with your assertion that you don’t believe it does, then we will just have to agree to disagree.
My bad, this was actually a quote Troppus used. I got confused.
Sorry, the basic tenants are paying people to play a role to recreate a certain place or time. In both instances, the place and time being recreated is the Old South. I understand that slavery is one of the things the era is best known for, but there are many other aspects to it as well. If anything, Paula was talking about recreating a very romantic or idealized version of it. The people serving at the party would be servers and they would be paid and would have the freedom to work or not, henceforth, not a slave, but someone being paid to play a part. If this offends you, then every movie depicting a slave should as well.
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What do you mean? Non-whites would have been punished much harsher for much more minor offenses. Obviously. Doesn’t mean that whites that attempted to interrupt the institution didn’t face repercussions.
I understand Paula Deen lived through the Civil Rights movement. She was also raised in a rural part of GA, in a low class family, among people that practiced, believed and reinforced discriminatory ideas. Lots of people have prejudices that were born before, during and after. Paula Deen used racial slurs decades ago. So what. From the evidence presented, she DID learn to not voice these views if she still had them since she has never been heard saying them. Is is completely impossible to think that since becoming successful that her views changed? Considering that the main piece of evidence is 30 years old, I don’t see it as impossible. I don’t believe that what the media presents is 1) the whole story and 2) enough to determine that Paula practices or condones discrimination in the work place, therefore, not enough to completely trash her and brand her a horrible racist.